School Holiday Fines

Simonne15

:j Our local secondary school offers the option of a pack of work for students to do at home if their parents request to take them on holiday during term time. Its logged as 'working at home'. This initiative deserves congratulation as it evidences teachers finding a way to work within the law whilst clearly also valuing parents' choice and documented effects on education.
There's no demand to know the reasons for the parents making such requests; this acknowledges that there are numerous reasons which lead parents and carers to make such requests, some related to parents' employment conditions, some to family constraints. It boldly illustrates mutual respect. :T

maman

Roystokes wrote: »

If the justification for fines is that absence affects educational attainment why is the legal position different in other countries in the UK and indeed, non state schools in England? Either a child's education is significantly affected or it isn't. Not in favour of truancy, but discretion should be allowed.

What it appears to come down to is that this government (Michael Gove in this case) believes it knows best and isn't interested in listening to professionals UNLESS it's a private school because they trust anything private.

Ironically, private schools always finish earlier in the summer term than state schools so the very parents who could afford to pay inflated prices don't have to!

But we're all in this together! :rotfl:

noggin61_2

All of this is just another money making back door tax. My advise to anyone who is refused 5 days off for a holiday is to ask if the school are going to cancel all school trips which usually start just after christmas.These trips usually include skiing trips abroard amongst others which are in term time. My work involves having to work in schools during holiday times as it is the only time certain maintenance and rebuilding works can be carried out safely with no children in schools. I know a lot of people who are not allowed holiday leave during school holidays due to being contracted to work them dates as their companies are under penalty clauses to get the works done and the schools reopened on time. Everybody does not get the same times off anymore it is a 24hour society now and as such people have to work it. Lets get some common sense back into decisions.

Tammykitty

Guest101 wrote: »

Because as a society, we are supposed to be at the forefront of economically sufficient lifestyles.

What's a standard family? Can you define?

By a standard family I mean people around the average wage.
A foreign holiday every year is for people that can afford to pay the supplements.


I worked for a company that had a week shutdown at easter, a week at Christmas and 2 weeks in the summer - we had to take these holidays, so was even more restricted than families with school age children.
However - I didn't think I would just not turn up to work for a week so I could get a cheap holiday.


I don't agree with fining people, but I also don't agree with taking children out of school, if its for a one off event like a family wedding or something, or its those few days at the end of term when everyone knows the children don't do work fair enough.


But there is no need to take children out of school every year just so you can afford a foreign holiday.

Guest101

Tammykitty wrote: »

By a standard family I mean people around the average wage.
A foreign holiday every year is for people that can afford to pay the supplements.
Assuming that there are 2 adults, earning the average wage, that's a family income of £52,000 per year.

I worked for a company that had a week shutdown at easter, a week at Christmas and 2 weeks in the summer - we had to take these holidays, so was even more restricted than families with school age children. - That's your choice though, as you chose to work there.
However - I didn't think I would just not turn up to work for a week so I could get a cheap holiday. - Not sure how that's relevant? You have a choice.


I don't agree with fining people, but I also don't agree with taking children out of school, if its for a one off event like a family wedding or something, or its those few days at the end of term when everyone knows the children don't do work fair enough.


But there is no need to take children out of school every year just so you can afford a foreign holiday.

I think parents should be left to make the best decision for their children

Tammykitty

Guest101 wrote: »

I think parents should be left to make the best decision for their children

Average wage might be £26k, so £52k for a 2 working adults, but the average household income is about £26k (After all direct taxes)(http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/nowcastinghouseholdincomeintheuk/2015-10-28#about-these-statistics)
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/mar/25/uk-incomes-how-salary-compare (For a couple with 2 children £44k average income)


The majority of families I know with school age children don't have 2 parents working full time.


I did choose the job, but it is the biggest employer in my area, so for a lot of people it is a choice between restricted holidays or no job (and no money to pay for foreign holidays). (I had been looking for years for a new job, and loving the flexibility of holidays now I have them)


Parents also have a choice if they want to take holidays when they want, they can home school, it is not compulsory to send a child to school, I also believe private schools and academies don't have the same restrictions on holidays.


It is also a persons choice to have children, and the extra cost of term time holidays is just one of the many costs of having a child (And its an optional cost as holidays are not essential)


I don't think taking a child out of school for a week every year just for a week in Spain is right.


A quick search on Thomas Cook shows a week in September in Gran Canaria as between £1,200 and £1,700 for 2 adults and 2 children. In August it is between £1,800 and £2,300. So its roughly an extra £600 for a term time holiday.

Guest101

Tammykitty wrote: »

Average wage might be £26k, so £52k for a 2 working adults, but the average household income is about £26k (After all direct taxes)(http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/nowcastinghouseholdincomeintheuk/2015-10-28#about-these-statistics)
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/mar/25/uk-incomes-how-salary-compare (For a couple with 2 children £44k average income) - I'm confused as to what you include in 'direct taxes', is that VAT?, Council Tax?, Income tax and NI presumably.


The majority of families I know with school age children don't have 2 parents working full time. - But that's just your experience, mine is the exact opposite, in reality it's probably about 50/50. But that's a choice in most cases.


I did choose the job, but it is the biggest employer in my area, so for a lot of people it is a choice between restricted holidays or no job (and no money to pay for foreign holidays). (I had been looking for years for a new job, and loving the flexibility of holidays now I have them) - Ok but that's again a choice. I'm not talking about individual cases, I'm talking about the big picture, society as a whole.


Parents also have a choice if they want to take holidays when they want, they can home school, it is not compulsory to send a child to school, I also believe private schools and academies don't have the same restrictions on holidays. - All correct. And I agree with you, but this law is purely about filling up the treasury, nothing to do with education.


It is also a persons choice to have children, and the extra cost of term time holidays is just one of the many costs of having a child (And its an optional cost as holidays are not essential) - I'm saying that, as a society, being the pinnacle and envy of the world (as it's claimed) we should be able to do all these things. The hypothetical should.


I don't think taking a child out of school for a week every year just for a week in Spain is right. - That's fine. But you're not that childs parent. Again as a society we 'should' be able to trust parents to make the best decision.


A quick search on Thomas Cook shows a week in September in Gran Canaria as between £1,200 and £1,700 for 2 adults and 2 children. In August it is between £1,800 and £2,300. So its roughly an extra £600 for a term time holiday.

and with the fine being £240, you can see why parents do it.

mike_wilcock

The government seems very quick to react to close loop holes which save the average person money, just very slow reacting to loop holes that let large companies, or rich individuals evade paying tax. All this fuss about charging parents who take children out of school to enjoy a cheap holiday, which isn't cheap anyway but far cheaper than the inflated prices during school holiday. To help the average person get a fair deal and stay within the law, they should cap the amount holiday companies increase their prices by in school holidays. If the prices were cheaper then there would not be a problem of unauthorised school absence. The government who does that gets my vote.

Guest101

mike_wilcock wrote: »

The government seems very quick to react to close loop holes which save the average person money, just very slow reacting to loop holes that let large companies, or rich individuals evade paying tax. All this fuss about charging parents who take children out of school to enjoy a cheap holiday, which isn't cheap anyway but far cheaper than the inflated prices during school holiday. To help the average person get a fair deal and stay within the law, they should cap the amount holiday companies increase their prices by in school holidays. If the prices were cheaper then there would not be a problem of unauthorised school absence. The government who does that gets my vote.

It is claimed that the term time prices are discounts, rather than inflations outside of term

Tammykitty

originally posted by tammykitty
average wage might be £26k, so £52k for a 2 working adults, but the average household income is about £26k (after all direct taxes)(http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/nowcastinghouseholdincomeintheuk/2015-10-28#about-these-statistics)
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/mar/25/uk-incomes-how-salary-compare (for a couple with 2 children £44k average income) - i'm confused as to what you include in 'direct taxes', is that vat?, council tax?, income tax and ni presumably.
Its not my definition, but if you read the details I believer it says council tax, income tax etc. VAT is an indirect tax


the majority of families i know with school age children don't have 2 parents working full time. - but that's just your experience, mine is the exact opposite, in reality it's probably about 50/50. But that's a choice in most cases. - I suspect you have friends in "careers" as opposed to "jobs". As for most people with low - medium paying jobs, it doesn't pay for both parents to work full time, but you are right it is a choice.


i did choose the job, but it is the biggest employer in my area, so for a lot of people it is a choice between restricted holidays or no job (and no money to pay for foreign holidays). (i had been looking for years for a new job, and loving the flexibility of holidays now i have them) - ok but that's again a choice. I'm not talking about individual cases, i'm talking about the big picture, society as a whole.
A lot of people have restrictions on when they can take holidays, Teachers, Manufacturing, Construction, Finance (Busy Periods), Retail - its not unusual, and people manage without taking unpaid or unauthorized leave for foreign holidays.


parents also have a choice if they want to take holidays when they want, they can home school, it is not compulsory to send a child to school, i also believe private schools and academies don't have the same restrictions on holidays. - all correct. And i agree with you, but this law is purely about filling up the treasury, nothing to do with education.


it is also a persons choice to have children, and the extra cost of term time holidays is just one of the many costs of having a child (and its an optional cost as holidays are not essential) - i'm saying that, as a society, being the pinnacle and envy of the world (as it's claimed) we should be able to do all these things. The hypothetical should.


I still do not understand why you think people should be able to afford a foreign holiday - and I also do not believe UK Society is the pinnacle or envy of the world, even if it is - I don't think anyone expects that in any country, everyone should be able to afford a foreign holiday - less than 40% of Americans even have a passport.



i don't think taking a child out of school for a week every year just for a week in spain is right. - that's fine. But you're not that childs parent. Again as a society we 'should' be able to trust parents to make the best decision.


I agree to this - we should be able to trust parents, but as so many people think its acceptable to take a week in the sun, and believe it is a necessity, then we obviously can't - I do however think it should still be at the heads discretion, the school knows the pupils and knows how they will react to missing school. The indiscriminate fining is crazy, for a start people will just factor the cost of it into a holiday instead of asking the school for permission.
They could finish up booking a week holiday where a very complex part of the curriculum is to be taught, or a class trip etc.



a quick search on thomas cook shows a week in september in gran canaria as between £1,200 and £1,700 for 2 adults and 2 children. In august it is between £1,800 and £2,300. So its roughly an extra £600 for a term time holiday..

guest101 wrote: »

and with the fine being £240, you can see why parents do it.

I see why parents do it, and as I have said I don't agree with the fining, I do still believe in asking for the schools permission, and in not expecting to have a foreign holiday every year if you can't afford term time holidays. Instead of paying the fine, just go every other year - no family is going to suffer by not going abroad every year.