Mobile Roaming: Cheapest Calls When You're Abroad

jnm21

tipco wrote: »

My question was obviously not clear. The phone making the call was in england and my sim provider says the call back number is a uk number which technically it is because the channel islands are in the uk but why do providers use IOM and Channel Island numbers and not an english number?

Personally I understood your question at first time of asking. Just to clarify IOM & Channel Islands are NOT in the UK (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to give the full title; Great Britain including England, Scotland & Wales, not IOM or CI).

As for your question, I really think that the public is let down by both OFCOM & MSE on this - the former allowing a very unclear situation where by numbers which look like normal UK numbers to exist not only with a +44 international dialing code (which is probably necessary, but still unhelpful) but also within ranges that most people assume to be UK numbers (both in the 07 & 01 ranges). It can only be in the consumers interest to group these numbers, e.g. 070... personal numbers (generally cost a fortune to call), 074... through 079... standard UK mobile numbers only - this would leave 071..., 072... & 073... to be allocated to other uses (perhaps 0730... to 0736... CI mobiles & 0737... to 0739... IOM mobiles then 072... for calling card numbers).

MSE let people down on the topic by recommending travel sims that use numbers that (certainly in my experience of looking) they provide little information on the cost of calling.

I am lucky enough to have an old 0044 sim which uses a true UK number, but unfortunately they seem to no longer offer such sims (hence I value mine).

redux

jnm21 wrote: »

My bad - remembered the example wrongly: see here (makes sense now - number is lyca, which some networks treat as foreign).

Hmm, so can one port a true UK number to lyca?

Interesting - I still think OFFCOM should be ashamed of the farce that is a confusion about what numbers are UK & what are non-UK.

It's not treated as foreign; it's treated by T-mobile as a UK number, not inclusive in minute bundles. Though admittedly it does seem to be the case that some people seem to have been told this by poorly trained customer services.

Why should Ofcom be ashamed? It doesn't dictate what retail charges and contracts networks choose to offer.

Originally contracts had no minutes included, then included only landlines and same network mobiles. The concept of including most other networks in minute bundles was a market innovation, not mandated by Ofcom.

Networks can do what they want in many respects. Personally I believe that if a network declares it charges 15 pence a minute to European mobiles it shouldn't be charging 50 pence a minute to Guernsey Jersey and Isle of Man.

jnm21

redux wrote: »

It's not treated as foreign

You can say that as often as you like, but you are wrong, mobile contracts include UK minutes - when the networks refuse to include numbers, that is treating them as foreign - fact!

redux

jnm21 wrote: »

You can say that as often as you like, but you are wrong, mobile contracts include UK minutes - when the networks refuse to include numbers, that is treating them as foreign - fact!

It is not, as they are not listed as foreign calls, and not charged at tariffs applicable to foreign calls.

As I already said, networks can include or exclude any numbers they want, including that there are still arrangements applying to only calls to the same network, and it isn't Ofcom's responsibility to instruct them on the matter.

But surely this subject has already been done to death over the last few years ...

jnm21

redux wrote: »

Why should Ofcom be ashamed? It doesn't dictate what retail charges and contracts networks choose to offer.

You seem to repeatedly stand up for OFCOM - you don't happen to work for them? If you look again, I never mentioned charges or included numbers specifically as this is another thing you keep repeating - I am saying the the fact a punter cannot look at the area code first 2 or at worst 3 digits & say UK mobile number or non-UK mobile number is wrong. Same thing that they allow non-UK numbers to exist in the 01 range, which a large majority of people believes to be a solely standard UK landline range - it is not! One of their key tasks is to ensure that the consumer can easily understand the number structure & I feel that they are failing dismally!

redux

jnm21 wrote: »

You seem to repeatedly stand up for OFCOM - you don't happen to work for them? If you look again, I never mentioned charges or included numbers specifically as this is another thing you keep repeating - I am saying the the fact a punter cannot look at the area code first 2 or at worst 3 digits & say UK mobile number or non-UK mobile number is wrong. Same thing that they allow non-UK numbers to exist in the 01 range, which a large majority of people believes to be a solely standard UK landline range - it is not! One of their key tasks is to ensure that the consumer can easily understand the number structure & I feel that they are failing dismally!

I don't work for Ofcom, and I'm not standing up for them.

Whether the numbers are included or not is not their responsibility.

Why should Ofcom have to allocate numbers for Lycamobile to some special odd out of kilter series just to conform to and therefore appear to support T-mobile having a business position against Lyca?

I don't think so, otherwise they might have later issues with whole blocks of customer's phone numbers when networks changed policy, which would surely create much greater problems.

jnm21

redux wrote: »

It is not, as they are not listed as foreign calls, and not charged at tariffs applicable to foreign calls.

No? See here http://international.o2.co.uk/internationaltariffs/calling_abroad_from_uk Jersey, Guernsey & Isle of Man all listed. http://business.orange.co.uk/home/soletrader/plans/roaming-and-international-plans/calling-abroad-from-the-uk Need any more proof?

redux wrote: »

As I already said, networks can include or exclude any numbers they want, including that there are still arrangements applying to only calls to the same network, and it isn't Ofcom's responsibility to instruct them on the matter.

Nor did I say that they should - by their failure to simplify the number structure (i.e. separate out non-UK numbers), they are complicit in helping the networks to profit from users confusion!

redux wrote: »

But surely this subject has already been done to death over the last few years ...

Have to disagree - while the consumer is still paying through the nose due to confusion preyed upon by the networks ably assisted by a confusing number structure, I will continue to point out the issue in the hope that MSE will pick up on it.

jnm21

redux wrote: »

I don't work for Ofcom, and I'm not standing up for them.

Whether the numbers are included or not is not their responsibility.

Why should Ofcom have to allocate numbers for Lycamobile to some special odd out of kilter series just to conform to and therefore appear to support T-mobile having a business position against Lyca? I don't think so.

I did not mention neither Lyca nor included numbers - read the posts before you try to contradict them! You made this point months ago & I (reluctantly) agree, so changed my opinion (they are responsible for making things clear to the consumer - UK & non-UK is not a commercial decision).

redux

jnm21 wrote: »

No? See here http://international.o2.co.uk/internationaltariffs/calling_abroad_from_uk Jersey, Guernsey & Isle of Man all listed. http://business.orange.co.uk/home/soletrader/plans/roaming-and-international-plans/calling-abroad-from-the-uk Need any more proof?

You've chosen a poor example there to support your argument, as one of those links clearly show that O2 counts Guernsey Jersey and Isle of Man as standard rates, namely the same as the UK

It does appear that Orange has changed policy though, as they certainly did also use to include the calls in their bundles. Maybe they still do for older contracts, maybe they changed on merger with T-mobile, or maybe that page is a mistake; I don't know.

Buzby

Not a commercial decision? Of course it is a commercial decision. Landline operators used to charge differently for local, intermediate (up to 35km) and LONG distance, all this was swept away and there is now just a single rate.

For mobiles 3's network used to allow same-country deals on their network - my 3UK SiM was not treated as foreign on 3 Ireland (and their other networks). Outbound calls came from inclusive minutes even when abroad. Shame it didn't last, but your ire at OFCOM is misplaced - they've made stupid mistakes, but they don't set prices.