Tax Credits

mwpt

Moby wrote: »

No..... you see you are making the mistake of accepting the Govmts narrative of austerity. Its called dog whistle politics.

<snip>

So your verbose post, in summary, means you believe point (2) is correct, people voting for austerity are incorrect but believe they're doing it for the right reason, the good of everyone. So why do the vocal left call these people scum, vile, threaten to string them up, etc? It's absurd.

Also, I disagree with you and think your politics is wrong. Benefits can never be lowered under your watch, only ever be increased. Logically unsustainable, and ideological in the extreme.

antrobus

Moby wrote: »

No..... you see you are making the mistake of accepting the Govmts narrative of austerity. Its called dog whistle politics. ....

No it isn't. 'Dog whistle politics' is where you make a statement that is only heard by those whom at it is direcly aimed. A 'narrative' of anything, by defintion, says what it says.

Moby wrote: »

...Osbornes speeches ostensibly appeal to the strivers amongst us and he set these people against the 'spongers'. You know the ones who are living it large on benefits while you are working all the hours that God sends!
The strivers have been careful with their money and they see !!!!lessness and spongers all around them. I acknowledge it exists.......... ....

There you are then. You "acknowledge it exists". If it exists, it exists.

Moby wrote: »

....but it shouldn't define the narrative and it's pretty puerile stuff really.....because most people think they are a striver and/or are deserving. That's my point. The argument gets far too simplistic and it becomes an almost Victorian deserving/undeserving poor narrative. There is a lot of sanctimonious.....'I have never claimed a days benefit in my life and I want you all to know about it'....rhetoric around and it grates.
I think you are being judgemental when you talk of 'faux UK poverty' and you ignore the points I made about the long term consequences for society when welfare policy becomes a political football. We all suffer in the end because this country becomes a seedier place to live when the political language and climate becomes harsher.

Mmm, let's put it this way.

You accuse your political opponents of 'dog whistle politics' just because you think it's something bad, you use words like 'narrative' to describe the arguments that your political opponents are making becuase that implies that they are making things up, and throw in a few words such as 'sanctimonious', 'Victorian' and 'judgemental' for good measure.

It's just empty rhetoric.

zagfles

TheNickster wrote: »

Yes the proposals for cutting Universal Credit remain the same. Expect a similar row about UC once this is realised as more and more people are moved on to it.

I doubt it - because UC includes transitional protection for those moved onto it. By far the main issue MPs had with it (as expressed in Frank Field's debate) was the sudden cut to people already getting it - some proposals were to phase them in or only apply the cuts to new claimants only.

That's exactly what UC will do - those on tax credits will get transitional protection when transferred across, whereas people claiming UC as a new claimant won't.

Also the cuts to UC weren't as severe as those to tax credits - the "work allowance" (equivalent of threshold) is cut but the taper rate isn't.

zagfles

princeofpounds wrote: »

I thought that was such a good post.


I have a mix of friends of different political views on social media. That includes a few Corbyn types (they work in the arts, incidentally).


You can really see that echo chamber effect people talk about, where they post stuff about how evil the Tories are etc. And the same half-dozen people like and agree with each other's posts.


And you can just tell that almost everybody else (including some of the Labour-lite supporters) find it tiresome and a bit ridiculous. But rarely does anyone comment or protest, because ultimately they just don't want to cause friction and anger or embarrass someone in a public way.


It is actually rather scary when political movements start to demonise their opponents, especially through such a basic, profound and even rather wilful mischaracterisation of their motivations.


Right wingers are not evil. The root motivation is individual liberty, just as the root motivation of the left wing is social solidarity. Those are both noble goals, and if we are all honest with ourselves mankind works best somewhere in the middle. In sci-fi terms, we are no more Borg than we are Doctor Who.

Very true. I know people of all sorts of political persuasions, all of them really nice people without an evil bone in their bodies.

But the only ones who post about politics on social media are the left wing ones, others just ignore them mostly because they know that if they dare to disagree they'd get called stupid or selfish, though in a much politer yet perhaps more patronising way! So they don't bother, they let them rant and ignore them when they post about anything political. And the other lefties will agree and they'll all agree how evil the Tories are etc etc.

The really funny thing was seeing them express complete shock at the election result! "But who voted Conservative, no-one I know support them"! :rotfl:

princeofpounds

But the only ones who post about politics on social media are the left wing ones, others just ignore them mostly because they know that if they dare to disagree they'd get called stupid or selfish, though in a much politer yet perhaps more patronising way!

There are nasty right wingers too mind you, the main difference is that they don't assume their opponents are just motivated by evil for the sake of evil, or greed for the sake of greed.


They have other problems!

missyrichards

princeofpounds wrote: »

Right wingers are not evil. The root motivation is individual liberty, just as the root motivation of the left wing is social solidarity. Those are both noble goals, and if we are all honest with ourselves mankind works best somewhere in the middle. In sci-fi terms, we are no more Borg than we are Doctor Who.

Yes, I think that is very true. I think the Tories are trying to come across as more in the centre at the moment to appeal to more people.

dktreesea

michaels wrote: »

Actually not as dodgy as they first made out. They get to a figure of 76% claiming but also suggest only 85% of those eligible to claim do so...which puts us pretty much at 90% eligible which given you could get them at up to 65k household income I guess makes sense numerically even if not fiscally.

Yes, but not 90% eligible of all households with children (around 11 million or so). It's 90% eligible of all those entitled to tax credits, less than 4 million households with children. That's what I meant by Osborne being misleading. He's far too lightweight on the figures side to be a chancellor.

mforr64

Missy Richards - I think that the Tax Credit debacle has shaken the Tories and has done permanent damage - even at this early stage in the parliamentary lifecycle. I also for one minute don't believe all Tories are bad people.

George Osborne was absolutely determined to push ahead with his ideology. He knew what he was doing on the 7th July would cause untold damage to families who for the majority of them because of their total ignorance of politics wouldn't have known until December when it was too late.

If I were to believe everything on these threads that is supposed of me and my family then we are branded !!!!less worthless scroungers who are the bane of society as we receive tax credits. There I have said it. How the OP started his statement already made many assumptions. I am only posting on here as I am off work due to an appendectomy on Monday.

I suppose Mark W will try to analyse what I am saying like he did from my first post, actually thought he was being patronising as he knew nothing about me apart from the couple of sentences I wrote. BTW Mark W - my husband works 50 hours a week (unpaid OT - just like your partner) and we still get TC's - I earn over the current NMW too working in the community with families. Raising the NMW to £9 by 2020 would have done nothing for us.

The thing is with us - we've been up there and after a redundancy we now know what it's like down there. Eight years on we accept we will never get back to where we once were monetarily but we have become more compassionate humanitarians and it has now stirred a passion for politics within me but not the media right wing selected bias or the New Labour drivel but Jeremy Corbyn. Come on now - throw the "book" at me!

wotsthat

I'm sure I'd be a nicer more compassionate humanitarian if I decided to work 50 hours a week for free doing something I loved and was getting the taxpayer to part fund this lifestyle choice.

wotsthat

Anyone remember all those people advising caution about the pace of tax credit change when they were being introduced?

No me neither.