Tax Credits

dktreesea

The real problem for tax credits going forward is that without reform it's a bill that is likely to keep expanding, even if the rates were frozen.


While our economy is creating jobs, as the TUC points out , we now have an hourglass wage structure, with some highly skilled jobs being created that are well paid, but also a lot of low paid jobs, in some cases skilled jobs. We seem to have lost the middle ground.


http://www.economicvoice.com/tuc-analysis-reveals-big-increase-in-low-paid-self-employment-and-low-wage-work-since-recession/


The more low paid jobs we create, the more likely it is that these people will need to rely on welfare for a top up at some point in the future, if not immediately.

michaels

dktreesea wrote: »

But surely that's to be expected? The vast majority of working people don't receive any direct welfare, including tax credits.

At the height of Brown's tax credits in 2010 9 out of 10 people with kids received some sort of handout....

dktreesea

michaels wrote: »

At the height of Brown's tax credits in 2010 9 out of 10 people with kids received some sort of handout....

So George Osborne also likes to claim. But it's misleading. More accurate is 9 out of 10 families with dependent children who were eligible to receive tax credits received them. And it's still exaggerated.


According to this site:
https://fullfact.org/factcheck/economy/tax_credits_spending_families_claiming-46624
there are 11 million families with children in the UK. Only just over 3 million of those families are eligible for tax credits.

gadgetmind

michaels wrote: »

At the height of Brown's tax credits in 2010 9 out of 10 people with kids received some sort of handout....

We never scrounged a penny, so my conscience is clear.

Thrugelmir

dktreesea wrote: »

# We seem to have lost the middle ground.

It's called technology. Once set up and running efficiently removes the need for human input. What's left is hospitality, care working, call centres, assembly lines, retail etc in the unskilled arena. While at the other end there's engineering, construction, science , etc which require an application of learnt skill over many many years.

Probably why BTL is such a fad. As doesn't require hard work or any particular skills.

michaels

dktreesea wrote: »

So George Osborne also likes to claim. But it's misleading. More accurate is 9 out of 10 families with dependent children who were eligible to receive tax credits received them. And it's still exaggerated.


According to this site:
https://fullfact.org/factcheck/economy/tax_credits_spending_families_claiming-46624
there are 11 million families with children in the UK. Only just over 3 million of those families are eligible for tax credits.

Actually not as dodgy as they first made out. They get to a figure of 76% claiming but also suggest only 85% of those eligible to claim do so...which puts us pretty much at 90% eligible which given you could get them at up to 65k household income I guess makes sense numerically even if not fiscally.

Moby

antrobus wrote: »

Wouldn't that be pretty standard rhetoric for the left? Aren't they always promising some wonderful great leap forward in government spending to be paid for by some magic tax on someone else?

Talking about magic tax.....what about George's 'stunt'? Going to ignore that? George was saved by a new projection by the OBR that allowed him to withdraw what was a grossly unfair policy. He was really stupid in July to plan these changes in the first place. He could have just waited for the universal benefit changes to be rolled out. It would have been more gradual and the changes would affect new claimants; which is of course what will happen now.

A good Govmt doesn't set one section of the population against another and it is about choices imo. Incidentally in real life I rarely come across some of the views I see on here....thankfully!:o

Moby

mwpt wrote: »

The thing with the left is that you attribute to malice as a first point of call. Most people who believe austerity is necessary and/or voted conservative most likely believe it is necessary for the long term well being of the entire country, not just the bottom 10%. But it also includes the bottom 10% long term.

You have three choices regarding these people.

1) They are correct. In which case, all the venom the left generates against them is wrong.

2) They are incorrect, but believe they're correct for the right reasons, and actually mean well for everyone. The venom the left generates against them is extremely unhelpful and I believe toxic.

3) They are correct/incorrect but don't really care which because they just dislike the poor. You can bash these guys as much as you like.

Out of all of these options I think (3) must be by far the minority, yet reading all social media commentary by the left, you'd think it was by far the majority.

And btw, I don't claim to have special experience regarding poverty. I'm just one of many billions who have seen real poverty first hand, not the faux UK poverty claimed by a reduction in benefits to a person working part time such that they still earn more than my teacher partner who works all hours of the day and weekend.

No..... you see you are making the mistake of accepting the Govmts narrative of austerity. Its called dog whistle politics. Osbornes speeches ostensibly appeal to the strivers amongst us and he set these people against the 'spongers'. You know the ones who are living it large on benefits while you are working all the hours that God sends!
The strivers have been careful with their money and they see !!!!lessness and spongers all around them. I acknowledge it exists........but it shouldn't define the narrative and it's pretty puerile stuff really.....because most people think they are a striver and/or are deserving. That's my point. The argument gets far too simplistic and it becomes an almost Victorian deserving/undeserving poor narrative. There is a lot of sanctimonious.....'I have never claimed a days benefit in my life and I want you all to know about it'....rhetoric around and it grates.
I think you are being judgemental when you talk of 'faux UK poverty' and you ignore the points I made about the long term consequences for society when welfare policy becomes a political football. We all suffer in the end because this country becomes a seedier place to live when the political language and climate becomes harsher.

princeofpounds

The thing with the left is that you attribute to malice as a first point of call. Most people who believe austerity is necessary and/or voted conservative most likely believe it is necessary for the long term well being of the entire country, not just the bottom 10%. But it also includes the bottom 10% long term.

You have three choices regarding these people.

1) They are correct. In which case, all the venom the left generates against them is wrong.

2) They are incorrect, but believe they're correct for the right reasons, and actually mean well for everyone. The venom the left generates against them is extremely unhelpful and I believe toxic.

3) They are correct/incorrect but don't really care which because they just dislike the poor. You can bash these guys as much as you like.

Out of all of these options I think (3) must be by far the minority, yet reading all social media commentary by the left, you'd think it was by far the majority.

I thought that was such a good post.


I have a mix of friends of different political views on social media. That includes a few Corbyn types (they work in the arts, incidentally).


You can really see that echo chamber effect people talk about, where they post stuff about how evil the Tories are etc. And the same half-dozen people like and agree with each other's posts.


And you can just tell that almost everybody else (including some of the Labour-lite supporters) find it tiresome and a bit ridiculous. But rarely does anyone comment or protest, because ultimately they just don't want to cause friction and anger or embarrass someone in a public way.


It is actually rather scary when political movements start to demonise their opponents, especially through such a basic, profound and even rather wilful mischaracterisation of their motivations.


Right wingers are not evil. The root motivation is individual liberty, just as the root motivation of the left wing is social solidarity. Those are both noble goals, and if we are all honest with ourselves mankind works best somewhere in the middle. In sci-fi terms, we are no more Borg than we are Doctor Who.

mwpt

Moby wrote: »

Talking about magic tax.....what about George's 'stunt'? Going to ignore that? George was saved by a new projection by the OBR that allowed him to withdraw what was a grossly unfair policy.

It's not a grossly unfair policy. Is it fair that my partner works what amounts to 50+ hour weeks but earns less than someone on tax credits?