Britain and the EU

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wotsthat wrote: »

I assumed no was anti EU only because Graham is going to vote no.

Just looked it up and it's remain.... Or leave....

Removes the advantage of the positive 'yes' statement.

Yup remain or leave is much clearer, it was a good decision I think

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

If I wrote that list you wouldn't give it the time of day and would flip it off. Stop making a show of yourself.

The suggesting is that I am embarrasing myself by giving you a list of stuff I feel would benefit us being out of the EU.

Less than an hour later, the chairman of Lloyds Bank backs up a couple of points on my list.

I ask you to tell me why you appear to disagree, and you simply state I am making a show of myself.

If you cannot bring yourself to discuss this subject and the points people are putting forward I have no idea why you are taking part in this thread.

antrobus

Masomnia wrote: »

There are a fair few countries who currently don't have the Euro but are obliged to join. As they do so over the next 5 - 10 years our position on the outside will become untenable; of course we will join sooner or later. As I say it won't be long until we have a PM who takes us in, presumably based on the same arguments the pro-EU camp are making now.....

All you are doing is repeating what you said before.

I disagree. The UK will not join the Euro in the forseeable future.

Masomnia wrote: »

...Well clearly.

I'm glad you now agree.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

The suggesting is that I am embarrasing myself by giving you a list of stuff I feel would benefit us being out of the EU.

Here's your list.

We regain control of many things.

We avoid being tramlined down certain paths.

We save huge sums of money.

We can open up and trade with the world.

And as the yes camp can't really provide anything really worth staying for, bar how great it is for already wealthy business folk/individuals and some implied fear stories, I really can't see any reason as to why we'd stay.

Here's my list..

We have control of plenty of things

We get to negotiate which paths we (and the rest of Europe) travel

We'll be better off financially staying

The best the leave camp can offer is to say things wouldn't change that much so we may as well do one.

Has the debate progressed because you've expressed your feelings and got me to do the same?

antrobus

wotsthat wrote: »

Here's your list.

We regain control of many things.

We avoid being tramlined down certain paths.

We save huge sums of money.

We can open up and trade with the world.

And as the yes camp can't really provide anything really worth staying for, bar how great it is for already wealthy business folk/individuals and some implied fear stories, I really can't see any reason as to why we'd stay.
...

I would have to say that the list in question is a bit on the vague side. As in things, what things? It's not really a statement that you can respond to, without being told what these 'things' are.

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

Here's your list.

We regain control of many things.

We avoid being tramlined down certain paths.

We save huge sums of money.

We can open up and trade with the world.

And as the yes camp can't really provide anything really worth staying for, bar how great it is for already wealthy business folk/individuals and some implied fear stories, I really can't see any reason as to why we'd stay.

Here's my list..

We have control of plenty of things

We get to negotiate which paths we (and the rest of Europe) travel

We'll be better off financially staying

The best the leave camp can offer is to say things wouldn't change that much so we may as well do one.

Has the debate progressed because you've expressed your feelings and got me to do the same?

Just taking the first one in isolation, as you seem to be struggling with what's being said.

Currently, we struggle in the UK to control our borders when it comes to EU migration. We also struggle with the benefits situation (though I believe the EU is starting to listen on this).

Those are two big ticket items that, because we are in the EU, we lose control over.

Coming out of the EU will enable us to regain control of those areas.

What we then do is up to politicians. But the fact is, if we are out of the EU, no longer can we blame the EU for migration levels or being unable to reign in benefits due to EU laws. We have the control, we have the ability to benefit from that control.

You say we control many things, but look at the recent bailout of Greece and those bridge loans. We had "concrete" promises that our money would not be used to bailout the Euro countries. What did those promises amount to? Worth less than bogg roll. Just another example of the illusionary control the EU "grant" us only to whip it away under our very noses with scant regard to our wishes.

The debate will progress as soon as you allow it to.

Graham_Devon

antrobus wrote: »

I would have to say that the list in question is a bit on the vague side. As in things, what things? It's not really a statement that you can respond to, without being told what these 'things' are.

You confused too?

Well I've given you two "things". You want more?

antrobus

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Just taking the first one in isolation, as you seem to be struggling with what's being said. ....

I'm not surprised. 'Things' is pretty undefined.:)

Graham_Devon wrote: »

...Currently, we struggle in the UK to control our borders when it comes to EU migration. We also struggle with the benefits situation (though I believe the EU is starting to listen on this).

Those are two big ticket items that, because we are in the EU, we lose control over.

Coming out of the EU will enable us to regain control of those areas.

What we then do is up to politicians. But the fact is, if we are out of the EU, no longer can we blame the EU for migration levels or being unable to reign in benefits due to EU laws. We have the control, we have the ability to benefit from that control. ....

So by 'things' you mean migration. That's a start.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

...You say we control many things, but look at the recent bailout of Greece and those bridge loans. We had "concrete" promises that our money would not be used to bailout the Euro countries. What did those promises amount to? Worth less than bogg roll. Just another example of the illusionary control the EU "grant" us only to whip it away under our very noses with scant regard to our wishes.

Our money was not used to finance the recent bailout of Greece.

antrobus

Graham_Devon wrote: »

You confused too?

Well I've given you two "things". You want more?

Well yes. I am not telepathic. :rotfl::rotfl:

wotsthat

CLAPTON wrote: »

In my mind the 'welfare ' of the people of the UK would be significantly better overall if the population was a few million less.

As half of all immigrants come from outside the EU and we can pick and choose which to accept how can you be sure numbers would fall if we left the EU?

There'd probably be no European free movement but no guarantees you wouldn't have the chance to make 500,000 new friends every year.