Britain and the EU

wotsthat

CLAPTON wrote: »

if that's what you meant, then a totally pointless question

however simply because something is good for business doesn't always make it good for society in general

There seems to be a consensus that EU membership is good for business. Or maybe I'm assuming that because the leavers aren't interested in arguing the point preferring to point out not all business is good for society or, even, implying selfish motivations.

michaels

I was thinking 'Britain, Lets Go!' had a good ring to it

Mistermeaner

If we vote to stay but then don't get all the things we thought we'd get does the whole of the UK become scotland?

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

If the roles were reversed and I'd posted this list of game changers you'd, rightly, be embarrassed for me.

Can you give me a drill down of what you disagree with?

CLAPTON

wotsthat wrote: »

There seems to be a consensus that EU membership is good for business. Or maybe I'm assuming that because the leavers aren't interested in arguing the point preferring to point out not all business is good for society or, even, implying selfish motivations.

The EU doesn't seem to be good for business in Greece, Spain etc so one would say the case in unproven.

To be good for business one needs to compare and contrast the EU with that which would have been the case with alternative system.

By and large it would be true that most large business 'leaders' have argued the the EU is good for them but then they used to argue that the EURO was essential too.

We have no effective evidence either way.

Graham_Devon

Never in a blue moon did I expect to see this...

There are no “compelling economic arguments” for Britain to remain in the European Union unless David Cameron is able to secure “significant” reforms in his renegotiation with Brussels, the chairman of Lloyds Banking Group has said.

He states he said this in a personal capacity, rather than on behalf of the business.

Noteworthy for two reasons - first it's the chairman of Lloyds bank saying ti which goes against conventional wisdom as the telegraph points out.

Secondly, he states "there are no compelling arguments to stay in the EU" - which I guess explains the lack of arguments to do so on this very thread.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11929853/No-compelling-arguments-for-staying-in-EU-without-major-reform-Lloyds-chairman-says.html

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Can you give me a drill down of what you disagree with?

If I wrote that list you wouldn't give it the time of day and would flip it off. Stop making a show of yourself.

wotsthat

CLAPTON wrote: »

The EU doesn't seem to be good for business in Greece, Spain etc so one would say the case in unproven.

To be good for business one needs to compare and contrast the EU with that which would have been the case with alternative system.

By and large it would be true that most large business 'leaders' have argued the the EU is good for them but then they used to argue that the EURO was essential too.

We have no effective evidence either way.

You would've been all over that argument if it was, say, a country like Scotland wishing to leave a union.

It's true that it's impossible to compare an outcome against a future event but thats how decisions have to be made unless we flip a coin or, more likely, you'd prefer the debate to focus on your pet EU peeves rather than economic benefits.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Secondly, he states "there are no compelling arguments to stay in the EU" - which I guess explains the lack of arguments to do so on this very thread.

If we decide to leave there will be a deal of uncertainty. Things we take for granted will have to be negotiated. It would be naive to think we can cherry pick the best bits of EU membership and even more naive to think no compromises would have to be made. Once these negotiations start you have to remember people want to leave for different reasons so there will be a load of politicking trying to promote different things as non negotiable.

It's this uncertainty that highlights why compelling reasons are needed to leave rather than say. Doing a Nigel Farage and just saying we'll save the membership fees won't cut it.

In my view its free movement that's the biggest issue for most people. Surprised it didn't feature on your wish list and I fear people will be willing to compromise too much to get the 'gates' closed.

CLAPTON

wotsthat wrote: »

You would've been all over that argument if it was, say, a country like Scotland wishing to leave a union.

It's true that it's impossible to compare an outcome against a future event but thats how decisions have to be made unless we flip a coin or, more likely, you'd prefer the debate to focus on your pet EU peeves rather than economic benefits.

Of course that is true

and so, in the end, people will have to make an 'emotional ' based decision rather than a rational calculation.

In Greece, people have ofted to stay in the EU and the EURO against all rational reasoning.

The same logic can be applied to Scotland too but with a different mix of emotions : Scotland is a perfectly viable economic entity unless they adopt the Greek approach but let's not get too far off topic.

In my mind the 'welfare ' of the people of the UK would be significantly better overall if the population was a few million less.