Eon letter asking to install smart meter?

Coedy

joncombe wrote: »

I personally think SmartMeters will be used to implement (compulsory) peak/off-peak pricing, where energy will cost more at times of peak usage. Hence I will be refusing a smartmeter if I am offered it because I suspect such a peak/off peak pricing will end up costing me more.

That is a very valid concern...
I hadn't come at it from that angle before. I had heard the arguments of "It will melt your brain" which is laughable...
and I've heard the concerns of remote cut off of supply but I didn't feel this as a threat as we usually keep on top of our energy (by using little and at the same time keeping an eye on everything I can [I raised as issue to BG 45mins after the bill had been issued and got it corrected within the hour due to me keeping records])

But I hadn't thought about off peak/on peak charges! Hmmmm I'll have a think! Good theory!

System

Coedy wrote: »

That is a very valid concern...
I hadn't come at it from that angle before. I had heard the arguments of "It will melt your brain" which is laughable...
and I've heard the concerns of remote cut off of supply but I didn't feel this as a threat as we usually keep on top of our energy (by using little and at the same time keeping an eye on everything I can [I raised as issue to BG 45mins after the bill had been issued and got it corrected within the hour due to me keeping records])

But I hadn't thought about off peak/on peak charges! Hmmmm I'll have a think! Good theory!

We are years away from peak demand charges. The roll-out of smart meters has to be complete before it could sensibly happen.

joncombe

Hengus wrote: »

We are years away from peak demand charges. The roll-out of smart meters has to be complete before it could sensibly happen.

So by the same logic, refusing a smart meter means the rollout can't complete, so peak charges can't happen. So I don't see this as a reason in favour of smart meters.

I also think there are other concerns. For example I expect Smart Appliances (google for it, if you've not heard of it), which can communicate with your meter will become compulsory (for new appliances). This means your appliance can be requested to shut down or reduce energy usage by the meter at times of high demand. Might not cause a problem, but it is just another thing which can go wrong. In future we migth even see it being used to stop certain high drain appliances (e.g. hair dryers) being used if usage is too high. Because I think energy shortages are likely in future without far more investments in new power stations (solar won't work when it's dark, wind won't work when it isn't windy).

They also allow the supplier to remotely cut off supply. Whilst that might be good to cut off those who won't pay energy companies can (and do) make mistakes. You only have to see the number of posts here by people getting letters from debt collectors for debt they didn't even know existed (or may not even be theirs). If in future suppliers simply cut you off rather than send debt collectors, it makes your bargaining position rather more limited, as most people would not want to be without gas/electricity for long.

Also how secure is the ability to remotely shut down? If it's just done with a suitably formatted message over the mobile phone network, can we be sure it can't be hacked so someone can't have "fun" sending the messages out to random numbers in the hope they can cut someones supply off? Sounds unlikely I agree, but I think it could happen.

d70cw6

victor2 wrote: »

Let them install a smart meter, then switch to another supplier and it becomes dumb again.
Once you've done that, does it stop transmitting its regular readings and allow you to remove your tin foil hat though?...
And, does it get its smartness back if you switch back??

i had an eon smart meter installed a few years back, but then switched away from them a few months later (meter then became "dumb")

i have switched back to Eon over a year ago but my meter remains dumb.

System

joncombe wrote: »

So by the same logic, refusing a smart meter means the rollout can't complete, so peak charges can't happen. So I don't see this as a reason in favour of smart meters.

.

The roll-out only has to be complete in so much that every household and business has been offered a smart meter. The fact that it may well prove impossible to get 100% take up is irrelevant.

That said, the 'industry' still has some major challenges. For example, they have yet to solve the problem of connectivity in high rise flats and in rural areas. There is also the issue of remote gas metering: who pays for the required electricity mains connection? The best that the Government can hope for in the short term is that IHD fascination will change some consumer usage habits. This 'hope' is against the background that 70% of energy users are still on standard variable energy tariffs.

lstar337

fluffymuffy wrote: »

How do we know the RF emissions are as said on the tin? Who monitors the output of these devices? Is it Volkswagon?

Why would it bother anybody when there are much higher RF emissions out there that you cannot control or hide from?

System

Some quotes from the latest IoD Report on smart metering:

The objective of time of day pricing is to use the same kind of half- hourly pricing to change consumer behaviour, reduce demand and shift more of it to lower-priced periods at off-peak times. Conceivably, this could certainly lower consumer bills. A more careful analysis though suggests that the only real items that can be moved – and not without inconvenience – are washing machines and dishwashers.

So how will it be possible to achieve a hoped-for 2 gigawatt saving from smart meters?

Clearly, what will have to happen is demand destruction and on a very large scale. But again, is this possible?

It will require much higher prices than are currently being set or that ofgem will allow, and much higher degree of trust between consumers and their electricity suppliers than currently exists.

The truth is that setting time of day prices to achieve demand shift, lower energy consumption, maintain utility profits and benefit the consumer is just possibly an intractable problem.

DECC and the smart meter manufacturers are developing a new ZigBee standard which operates at the lower frequency of 868 Mhz. This will have longer range and bring within reach, most but not all, the meters of 7 million homes that are more remotely sited externally or in a basement. ZigBee will be used to transmit data from the smart meters to the IhD and to the Communications hub.
the most underestimated risks for ZigBee are:

i) ZigBee chips product lifetimes are unlikely to exceed 4 years. This is much shorter than the duration of the installation stage of the smart meter rollout of 2015-2020. It is considerably shorter than the 12-15 year lifespan of a smart meter and considerably less than the 40 year lifetime of an analogue meter. Thus, new smart meter re-installations may be required only a few years into the programme right across the country.

ii) ZigBee is not a mature technology, the gB-only specification has been rushed and poorly tested and years could be required for debugging which will have to happen after the deployment.

£12Bn of investment, and rising, with £17Bn of assumed savings (not proven)

The full pdf makes for an interesting and unbiased read. Google IoD Smart Meters - a very dicey investment.

[Deleted User]

d70cw6 wrote: »

i had an eon smart meter installed a few years back, but then switched away from them a few months later (meter then became "dumb")

i have switched back to Eon over a year ago but my meter remains dumb.

My BG smart became dumb on an Eon switch, and acted as a superior energy monitor, and unlike your Eon switch back, my switch to Sainsburys Energy (BGs no frills cheaper tariff ) it became smart again.
The Government think that its reasonable to expect suppliers to charge people who opt out of smart meters. In USA , they charge $10 a month plus a one off charge.. The extra costs these refusers create will be born by the rest of us otherwise. They are causing increased costs sticking to their meters from the last century.
.Smart prepays in Northern Ireland, where its been a big success, are showing whats possible with much cheaper prepay tariffs by using smart prepayment meters with very little upkeep and are much more usable and cheaper to run .Negativity over the smart roll out won t help the poorest in the UK from paying the same as I do with my direct debit credit meters .There is no reason why a smart prepayment meter should nt be as low or lower than the cheapest credits once the suppliers get confidence in the low costs of upkeep.

brewerdave

Hengus wrote: »

ZigBee chips product lifetimes are unlikely to exceed 4 years. This is much shorter than the duration of the installation stage of the smart meter rollout of 2015-2020. It is considerably shorter than the 12-15 year lifespan of a smart meter and considerably less than the 40 year lifetime of an analogue meter. Thus, new smart meter re-installations may be required only a few years into the programme right across the country.

....I thoiught that the timescales had been further adjusted into the future ?

System

brewerdave wrote: »

....I thoiught that the timescales had been further adjusted into the future ?

You are correct. The report that I alluded to was written in Spring 2015. An article in Utility Week dated August 2015 states:

In its smart metering rollout strategy Decc told energy companies to expect the DCC to go live in August 2016, four months after the April 2016 date currently given by the DCC in its replay.

Decc said that the new date had been used “in recognition of the fact that six months of contingency has been held in reserve… it had been recommended that other parties use a central planning assumption of August 2016 to be ready for DCC Live.”

The DCC live date has already been delayed from December 2015 to April 2016, announced in March this year.

All domestic suppliers are required to be using the DCC by 1 August 2017, while large suppliers will also have to install 1,500 SMETS2 meters by 1 February 2017.

While Decc expects distribution network operators to be using the DCC when it goes live in August 2016, it will not be setting the deadline until 1 February 2017 for fear an earlier mandate would present practical challenges for test management.

However Decc says all deadlines are subject to change as determined by the secretary of state.

Decc has also given the end date of 1 August 2017 for the installation of SMETS1 meters, saying it should give suppliers “sufficient time” to transition to the newer specification of meter required for the mass rollout. However it has said the date could be delayed if “significant industry-wide impediments should materialise.”

Make of the above what you will. My view is that smart metering may well be consigned to history as another failed Government run IT project gone wrong. The real threat is cyber security, and the damage that could be done to the National Grid if smart meters are subject to a virus attack. This rarely gets a mention.