PCN Notice Greenford / otter road yellow box

wealdroam

Edwood_Woodwood wrote: »

Even at the end one can clearly see that the last car in the right hand lane can move forward quite some distance, enough for another car at least.

Even if that were true, I happen to think there isn't enough room, the OP should not be entering the box anticipating that vehicles that are still in the box will have left it, and left enough room for him, by the time he gets there.

Remember, you told us earlier about Rule 174:

You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.

AdrianC

Edwood_Woodwood wrote: »

Right at the beginning of the video it shows the capacity available beyond the box junction and it is quite evident that two cars can move into the right hand lane quite comfortably.

They did. I think you might've got confused because they were both very similar shapes and colours, and the bus obscures the shot briefly.

0:10. Dark Golf in LH lane stops, dark Audi next to him pulls through out of shot.
0:12. First pale car in RH lane enters box.
0:19. First pale car level with front of van as van stops behind dark Golf. Note length of space behind it before box.
0:22. First pale car stops, rear level with dark Golf. Second pale car level with OP in box.
0:29. First pale car still not moved as camera zooms in past it. Second pale car just clearing box and stopping, can see gap between them not enough for another vehicle. OP still moving towards van, getting tight to swing past it even if there was room.

The Sprinter (length just under 7m) is tight to the back of the Golf, and tight on the edge of the box. The car in front in the RH lane is roughly level with the Golf. The OP's BMW (length 4.6m) would not fit in that space as well as the silver car (Renault Modus? length 3.8m). I make those two lengths to be a total of 8.4m, plus say half a metre between them. Two metres longer than the van. Nearly half the BMW still in the box.

As for blocking both lanes! Umm, there would be a box junction behind so no car should be approaching anyway!

No, he'd still be in the box, because he'd be diagonal across the back of the van and into the RH lane, but unable to pull fully forward.

Edwood_Woodwood

wealdroam wrote: »

Even if that were true, I happen to think there isn't enough room, the OP should not be entering the box anticipating that vehicles that are still in the box will have left it, and left enough room for him, by the time he gets there.

Remember, you told us earlier about Rule 174:

I suggest you look at the video again.

Just because I maybe in one lane doesn't mean I am therefore blind as to what is happening in the other lane and the other lane was quite obviously clear.

I am quite entitled to change lanes at any time, safely of course.

At the end of the footage the OP's car could have easily been accomodated had the car in front not taken up so much space.

AdrianC

Edwood_Woodwood wrote: »

I suggest you look at the video again.

Perhaps you would care to do so, and then dispute the positions and timings I've given - you seem to have ignored them completely so far, just repeating the same "But there is because I say so" over and over again.

force_ten

the question is, could the offending driver see that either exit was clear when he entered the box junction

My take on that question is no he could not see that the exit of either lane was clear

if the car in the outside lane had moved forward a bit then he may have been able to swap lanes and maybe avoid the penalty charge and that is only because the car behind was waiting for the exit to clear before entering the box

Edwood_Woodwood

AdrianC wrote: »

Perhaps you would care to do so, and then dispute the positions and timings I've given - you seem to have ignored them completely so far, just repeating the same "But there is because I say so" over and over again.

You are just incorrect, simple as.

The sprinter is not up close to the box junction at all, the Op could probably have got to a third, maybe a half, of his car up close to the sprinter.

However, by the by.

A bus passes by in the opposite direction and at 21 secs it is level with the second last car* in the right hand lane.

*The second last car will be the one that the vehicle at the end of the footage did not move up closer to to give room to the OP.

About one fifth of that bus is over the line of the box junction of the opposite side of the road meaning the gap from the second last car and the box junction is about 4/5ths of a bus length.

You must be dreaming if you think those two cars would not fit into the space of 4/5ths of a bus length.

Edwood_Woodwood

force_ten wrote: »

the question is, could the offending driver see that either exit was clear when he entered the box junction

My take on that question is no he could not see that the exit of either lane was clear

if the car in the outside lane had moved forward a bit then he may have been able to swap lanes and maybe avoid the penalty charge and that is only because the car behind was waiting for the exit to clear before entering the box

I see no reason why, as a driver, I cannot clearly see what is in front of me, ie a clear lane to my right ahead. Or at least clear enough for a couple of cars to fit in.

The video footage, to me, shows that, had I been the OP.

Edwood_Woodwood

In any case, quite easy to resolve.

Appeal this OP as I'd suggest you have a compelling reason.

In fact, a quick google has brought up several successful appeals arguing a similar point.

force_ten

Edwood_Woodwood wrote: »

I see no reason why, as a driver, I cannot clearly see what is in front of me, ie a clear lane to my right ahead. Or at least clear enough for a couple of cars to fit in.

The video footage, to me, shows that, had I been the OP.

At what point in the video was the exit in the outside lane clear for the OP to safely access the outside lane and exit the box?

force_ten

if you watch the video it clearly shows most drivers waiting for sufficient space beyond the box for them to move through the box without stopping

The OP said

I had a Large sprinter van in front of me rather than a car blocking my visibility of traffic ahead on it.

so has admitted that he could not see his exit was clear so for that reason alone he should not have entered the box junction