Ukcps - appeal unsuccessful

Thaggis

Hi all

I read lots of your helpful advice when tackling my PCN so thank you for that. I first recieved the PCN a while back, initially unsure of where it came from. It was at a later date when I appealed as Keeper of the Vehicle. PCN (10/5/2015) (even though on letters to myself it says 05/10/2015 which is actually in the future) but didn't recieve official letter until a month or so after and then my appeal date 05/08/2015.

I sent this:

Dear UKCPS Legal Section


I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

a). The sum is disproportionate, does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term.
b) The sum is extravagant and unconscionable and cannot be justified.
c). There is no evidence that you have any interest in the land. I have complained to the shops & retailers within the area about your aggressive ticketing.
d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA so there can be no keeper liability.
e). The signs were not seen/are ambiguous and the predominant purpose is to deter so there is no contract to pay this charge, which is a penalty.
f). The driver had verbal permission from UKCPS to park from the employee, so with no signs seen, this was the only contract formed. - The driver entered the car park. The driver enquired from UKCPS parking attendant on duty if they could park and a mumbling yes was the response.
g). On the PCN received the date in question is 5/10/2015, which is clearly not a real date thus making the PCN invalid anyway. Pic Attached.

Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I will only appeal further if you offer POPLA, the only independent ADR with a scrutiny panel and trained Assessors. The 'IAS' offered by IPC firms will not be used, for well-documented reasons.

''Drop hands'' offer
The charge is baseless but I realise that you may have nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs for responding to your junk mail dressed up to mimic a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15 so this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days and I will not pursue you for my costs.

Breach of CCRs
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered nor expressly agreed. This 'contract' is cancelled and any obligations now end.!

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,



And have recently recieved a letter stating that my appeal has been rejected due to it being presented late.

Where do I stand now? I was initially unaware of the fine due to not being the driver so had to find out information first etc.

Any help would be very good as I guess time is running out.

Thanks

AH

bod1467

Edit your post to mask the PCN number and your reg number! NOW! Parking companies trawl these forums so will be able to identify you.

What date did you receive the notice to keeper? What date did you send in the appeal?

I don't recall if UKCPS are BPA or IPC members. If IPC members then keepers don't even get any appeal, due to the corrupt way they have structured their code of practice.

Redx

UKCPS have been in the IPC for over a year, so use the corrupt IAS, if they allow it, which I doubt if the appeal is "out of time"

nothing you can do except bear the hassle for 6 years, unless they try small claims court in that time

no easy get out

ps:- its a speculative invoice, not a "fine"

The_Deep

Why do you not want to appeal to Skippy? A refusal from him is a sure fire way of preventing them from taking you to court.


I also suggest that you omit the ridiculous "drop hands Offer" and the withdrawal of contract nonsense, but you could drop the vat bomb.


This company appears to have a problem with v.a.t.


If this is contractual charge as they claim, it is a fee for parking and thus vatable.. Have they accounted for vat on their paper work?


If not it becomes a breach of contract . No vat is payable but it can only be sufficient to compensate them for losses arising as from the breach, i.e., no staff uniforms, N.I. contributions, no electricity, business rates etc., a GPEOL in fact.


Ask then for a vat invoice. If they ignore, (which they probably will), it is a useful stick with which to beat them if it gets to court.


More reading here


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5087925=
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5033796=
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5195437

If you suspect tax evasion go here

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/reporting-tax-evasion

Quentin

The_Deep wrote: »

I also suggest that you omit the ridiculous "drop hands Offer" and the withdrawal of contract nonsense,.....

We advise all newbies to go to the Newbies faq thread for advice. That is where the OP got that drop hands offer from.


It just confuses the issue for you to now contradict the advice in the newbies thread and refer to it as "nonsense". (Then you cause more confusion when you suggest your VAT bomb hobby horse!)

The_Deep

We advise all newbies to go to the Newbies faq thread for advice. That is where the OP got that drop hands offer from.


I sm well aware of that.


Of course I contradict daft advice, which the "drop hands" and "cancelling contracts" paragraphs certainly both are. Do you know of any PCs who have taken up these offers? I do not.

It is just a conceit by CM. I am sure that she will not mind if I have the temerity to disagree with her.

Quentin

You clearly disagree with the advice in the newbies thread.

But what is the point of confusing a newbie now by (wrongly) telling him part of his appeal was "ridiculous".

We all know his appeal didn't fail because he followed the advice in the newbie thread, yet you now seem to be suggesting that was the reason, and if only he had included your hobby horse in his appeal it would have succeeded!

The_Deep

But is my advice wrong? Does my 30 years advising Ministers of the Crown on Government policy count for nothing?

I am not saying that the v.a.t issue is a silver bullet, just that it adds another hurdle for the PPC to jump over.


If we can get a Judge to say "this cannot be a core term of a contract, where is the vat", they are Donald Ducked.

.

Umkomaas

However the spats above resolve themselves, I think the OP should be encouraged to appeal to the IAS. If, as is reported, ADR status 'approval' has been given to the IAS, it will be interesting to see how they match up to the approval criteria - one of which is that assessors'/adjudicators' are named in decisions; one criterion they have singularly failed to deliver on so far.

Potentially another angle of attack once a degree of intelligence/evidence is built.

We're all on the same side here guys!

ampersand

Retaining a free Cert.of Posting for a well-written letter is a good practice, Thaggis, a reasoned link in the paper trail. I prefer this even to printable captured screenshots of comms., given all that is currently unravelling at ukpc :-).
Any future nonsense, dodgy doings, will not stand up against your timeline of rational, factual comms.
Keep them courteous.

Thaggis

Hi guys

I'm a bit confused at to what you are proposing my next step is :-S