Lack of publicity over England's shops charging 5p a bag

The-Truth

Nick_C wrote: »

To quote the Guidance

"We expect retailers to donate the proceeds of the scheme to good causes, but it is for them to choose what to do, and which causes to support."

That just means they get to choose who they'll donate to. You're deluding yourself if you think it means it's optional and they can keep the lot if they wish. If that was really so then where does it it state exactly that? The answer is nowhere! It's just deluded cynics choose to imagine such things to suit their own missguided beliefs!

JReacher1

Nick_C wrote: »

You think recycling plastic bottles makes everything ok? Again, it's an over simplification of the issues.

Plastic bottles were raised on this thread in relation to people buying bottled water.

Sure. You can recycle plastic bottles. You can load them into a truck and drive them to a processing plant. You'll burn diesel transporting them. You will add to traffic congestion. The processing plant will use energy sending the mixed recycling along miles of conveyor belts, through spinning drums, passing under electro magnets, eddy current separators, and near infra red lights. The plastic bottles will then be loaded back on to those diesel powered trucks and sent back on to the road to be transported for further processing.

And of course at the start of the cycle, the water that went into the clean bottles was transported around the country (or around the world, depending on your preferred brand) from the bottling plant to the distribution centre, then on to the supermarket, then finally to your home. Imagine how much diesel is burned transporting all that water.

But after you've drunk the water you recycle the bottle. So it's all ok.

Of course you could have just turned on the tap

So your argument is that because people buy water in plastic bottles we should do nothing about the issue with plastic carrier bags.

Also your argument above about production and transport costs can be applied to any product you buy at the supermarket so is a frankly ridiculous argument. For example... Why buy carrots when it's better for the environment if you grow them at home etc.

You're not going to eliminate all products and processes that harm the environment so all you can do is reduce the impact the product has. That is by limiting the use of the product e.g. By charging 5p a bag or by recycling the container the product comes in.

System

Does anyone know if the council recycling bags are charged? My council offers two colours of bags free of charge. One is for paper and cardboard the other for plastic, cans and aerosols.

Nick_C

ScarletMarble wrote: »

Does anyone know if the council recycling bags are charged? My council offers two colours of bags free of charge. One is for paper and cardboard the other for plastic, cans and aerosols.

Your council could charge you for recycling bags that it supplies if it wanted to, but there is no requirement for it to do so. They are not covered by this legislation.

The legislation only covers people (or organisations) who are selling you goods and proving you with a plastic bag for the purposes of taking those goods away or delivering them to you.

So it doesn't apply to bags the council gives you for your waste or recycling.

It also doesn't apply to rolls of plastic bags that you buy in a shop for some other purpose. So if you buy bin bags, the retailer doesn't have to charge you 5p for each one!

Poppy9

We have had to pay for bags in Wales since 2011. It's only an issue if you impulse buy, especially clothes, and you realise you are far too mean to pay 5p even though you may have spent £50 on a dress!:rotfl:


Tips:
If you don't have a bag in supermarket get your car keys out first before you load up your arms with your shopping. It makes opening the car easier!!


Aldi and Home bargains have the best and cheapest reusable shopping bags. Morrisons handles break easily.

derrick

Morrisons seem to have a novel way to not charge for bags re online shopping, give the old ones to the driver and the charge is knocked off your bill.

"Doing our part for recycling
In advance of this new legislation coming into effect, we're launching a recycling incentive for deliveries from the 28th September.

Our drivers will ask if you have any bags to recycle and we'll pay 5p per bag for any Morrisons.com carrier bags you return.

Simply hand back your old carrier bags to your driver when you've received your delivery and they'll knock the total off your bill."


.

wealdroam

The-Truth wrote: »

That just means they get to choose who they'll donate to. You're deluding yourself if you think it means it's optional and they can keep the lot if they wish. If that was really so then where does it it state exactly that? The answer is nowhere! It's just deluded cynics choose to imagine such things to suit their own missguided beliefs!

I don't think there is any legislation that states that you, The_Truth, can spend your money how you like*. The absence of that statement clearly means that you can spend your money how you wish.

Likewise these bag sellers.




*please correct me if I am wrong.

Nick_C

"We expect retailers to donate the proceeds of the scheme to good causes, but it is for them to choose what to do, and which causes to support."

The-Truth wrote: »

That just means they get to choose who they'll donate to. You're deluding yourself if you think it means it's optional and they can keep the lot if they wish. If that was really so then where does it it state exactly that? The answer is nowhere! It's just deluded cynics choose to imagine such things to suit their own missguided (sic) beliefs!

It doesn't mean that at all!

The requirements are

(i) to charge a minimum of 5 pence, including VAT, for any single use carrier bags that the retailer supplies for you to take your goods away or have them delivered
(ii) to maintain information and statistics and make returns to DEFRA

That's it.

No requirement in England Wales or Scotland to give the money to good causes.

The secondary legislation in the mainland UK countries is made under the Climate Change Act. Addressing a Parliamentary committee earlier this year, the DEFRA minister stated

As in Wales and Scotland, we hope—indeed, we expect—that retailers will give the proceeds of the charge to good causes. The Climate Change Act does not give Government the powers to determine what retailers do with the proceeds of the charge, but we will require retailers to report to Government the number of bags they give out, the amount raised by the charge and what they do with the proceeds."

So in England, Wales and Scotland, retailers can do what they like with the money. It is not a tax (although it includes VAT). It is not a levy. It is a minimum amount which most retailers must charge if they provide single use carrier bags to their customers. Once the retailers have sold you a carrier bag, they are free to do what they like with the money (apart from the VAT element which they have to give to the Government).

So the Guidance in all three countries is similar.

In Scotland, the guidance says

The net proceeds of the charge belong to your business, however Scottish Government is keen to see these donated to good causes.

The Welsh guidance says

The money raised is collected by the retailer and we want this to be passed on to good causes, preferably environmental good causes, here in Wales.

So expectations, wishes, not orders or rules.

The situation in Northern Ireland is entirely different. Northern Ireland introduced its own primary legislation. Under this, retailers are required to charge a levy of 5p for each bag. This is a tax, it is not the retailer's money, it paid directly to the NI Government, who redistribute it for good causes.

Nick_C

JReacher1 wrote: »

So your argument is that because people buy water in plastic bottles we should do nothing about the issue with plastic carrier bags.

Also your argument above about production and transport costs can be applied to any product you buy at the supermarket so is a frankly ridiculous argument. For example... Why buy carrots when it's better for the environment if you grow them at home etc.

You're not going to eliminate all products and processes that harm the environment so all you can do is reduce the impact the product has. That is by limiting the use of the product e.g. By charging 5p a bag or by recycling the container the product comes in.

My argument is that there are much bigger environmental problems than people getting free carrier bags from the supermarket, and the government has got its priorities wrong. Supermarket carrier bags make up less than 5% of household plastic packaging.

(It is estimated that nearly 1.2 million tonnes of plastics packaging are consumed by households in the UK http://www.recoup.org/news/7192/2013-uk-household-plastics-collection-survey and 58 thousand tonnes of single use carrier bags are given out by UK supermarkets. http://www.recoup.org/news/7192/2013-uk-household-plastics-collection-survey)

I don't think it is ridiculous to think about the carbon footprint of things you buy in the shop. Yes, it's better to grow your own carrots than it is to buy them from the supermarket, but if you are going to buy them in a shop you can try and buy ones that have been locally sourced.

The point with water of course is that you don't need to buy it from the shops at all when you can just turn on the tap, so I'm not sure that the comparison between water and carrots really gets us anywhere.

Back to bags, for those of us who use our supermarket carriers as bin liners, there is no environmental gain in using a "bag for life".

I will carry on putting the same amount of plastic in my residual waste bin as I do now. I will have to buy the bags instead of getting them for free.

System

My argument is that there are much bigger environmental problems than people getting free carrier bags from the supermarket, and the government has got its priorities wrong. Supermarket carrier bags make up less than 5% of household plastic packaging

You say that as though it is the only action they are taking rather than one small simple bit of legislation that will help albeit not causing a dramatic cut in the carbon footprint. It is probably only one of a set of measures - not the only one.