Corbynomics: A Dystopia

Moby

GreatApe wrote: »

Such nonsense. If you are poor there has never been a better time to be alive

I know people are fond of looking back and remembering only the good but objectively we have never had it so good. That's not popular to say but it is true. The problem is people like you are too vocal & people like me are not vocal enough.

This is a great country with high wages low unemployment and fantastic prospects.
That doesn't mean everyone has or will have a fantastic life as many people shoot themselves in the foot via drug alcohol gambling addictions and others have mental problems or other mental traits (like getting angry v quickly and not able to control themselves).

I am glad I live in this country and no amount of negative propaganda is going to make me forget that we have high wages full employment and live in a safe civil society with mostly good people and good governance

It's groundhog day. You've posted exactly the same thing recently. Doing it again doesn't make it any more right. I've posted links previously to give you a steer but for some people their beliefs and how they see the world is a matter of faith I suppose. I'll try again......recognising like with every post I'm on stony ground on a forum that seems dominated by people who would be at home in the audience at a tory party conference:-

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/uk-lowest-wage-growth-greece-productivity-theresa-may-owen-smith-zero-hours-contacts-unproductive-a7158741.html

https://www.ft.com/content/83e7e87e-fe64-11e6-96f8-3700c5664d30

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/19/violent-crime-soars-fifth-offences-recorded-police-push-past/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/17/hate-soars-in-england-and-wales
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/cuts-mental-health-unemployed-rise-government-welfare-reforms-blamed-a7841941.html

'Depression lost me my job': How mental health costs up to 300,000 jobs a year - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41740666


https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21727077-credit-card-borrowing-has-soared-households-are-squeezed-growing-number-cant-keep-up

Moby

This country needs capitalism, it needs people willing to work to make money, without those that make money where would we be. After all, they are the ones that pay people to work for them, and everyone has the opportunity to work their way up the ladder if they want to, they simply have to work hard.

Capitalism ain't working and there is no equality of opportunity plus many people are working hard and are struggling.

Of course, the society that Corbyn wants has people at the top, but they are there for life, no-one can work their way up because that sort of thing is frowned upon.

I simply can't understand why he doesn't move to Venezuala if he is that enamoured of their society, or maybe North Korea.

Anyone with an ounce of sense knows what this country needs, and it most certainly is not Corbyn, it most certainly is no having the unions running it.

I get it when all else fails.... Trot out the Venezuela meme......followed by Diane Abbott, not forgetting terrorist sympathiser....and how the unions ruined the country......then repeat ad nauseum. Yes we know the script.

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

It's groundhog day. You've posted exactly the same thing recently. Doing it again doesn't make it any more right. I've posted links previously to give you a steer but for some people their beliefs and how they see the world is a matter of faith I suppose. I'll try again......recognising like with every post I'm on stony ground on a forum that seems dominated by people who would be at home in the audience at a tory party conference:-

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/uk-lowest-wage-growth-greece-productivity-theresa-may-owen-smith-zero-hours-contacts-unproductive-a7158741.html

https://www.ft.com/content/83e7e87e-fe64-11e6-96f8-3700c5664d30

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/19/violent-crime-soars-fifth-offences-recorded-police-push-past/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/17/hate-soars-in-england-and-wales
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/cuts-mental-health-unemployed-rise-government-welfare-reforms-blamed-a7841941.html

'Depression lost me my job': How mental health costs up to 300,000 jobs a year - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41740666

https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21727077-credit-card-borrowing-has-soared-households-are-squeezed-growing-number-cant-keep-up

All your links are confirmation bias spread with statistics you and the journalists don't understand. Take productivity. The UK outputs more goods and services than France depending on the exchange rate when its above 1.14 euro which is the majority of the time. We are a very productive country more so than France most the time. This is despite us giving a lot more foreign aid and us actually spending our 2% on the military unlike the Germans and French who freeload off us. Likewise the French have more land which is an intrinsic benefits but it is multiples by the EU subsidies on agriculture

Crime is down compared to most of history. Just like the stock market or housing market or currency its never a one way street but the likely road is downwards for crime. I don't credit this to the Tories I think crime would have gone down irrespective of who was in power and will continue to go down irrespective of who is in power. Soon software will be so powerful and cameras everywhere (especially as cara go digital) whenever anyone commits a crime it will be easy to solve as the software will be able to look at millions of cameras and find a persons movements before and after the crime. With that sort of ability crinal activity will fall as crime will pay a lot less.

Depression and mental health problems were not invented by the Tories NIR do labor have a workable solution above and beyond what is being done.

Credit card borrowing and mortgages almost always soar because as the economy grows people build and buy more. We have for instance nearly 2 million more homes than a decade ago two million more homes means some 1 million more mortgages. 2 million more households mean 3-4 million more credit cards.


Overall your and the lefts in general problem is to think you are so high minded and moral when you are not anymore moral than a typical Tory voter. Your extreme confirmation bias also betrays logic and fact. The UK is a high wage very low unemployment economy with lots of opportunity. We aren't perfect as there can always be improvements but we are a great country we have lots of freedom and opportunity. The beat time in history to be born is today the best place to be born is the capatilist west.

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

Capitalism ain't working and there is no equality of opportunity plus many people are working hard and are struggling.

Communism doesn't work why the hell do you think you can make it work when everyone else who tried it ended up killing huge chunks of their people and impoverishing almost all the rest.

There is equality of opportunity in the UK. The problem is this opertinity is based primarily on your genetics and parenting. If you are born smart and to good parents you will do well. If you are born dim you won't do well. If you are born to parents who don't care you won't so well. It's like the stats for children of since mothers more likely to be poor more likely to commit crime and more likely to be jailed.

I'm sure you will site examples of people you know who are smart and struggling but all that proves is distributions exist in stats.


Once more the UK is a great country with lots of wealth high wages low unemployment and a place a person can live a good free life.

Moby

GreatApe wrote: »

All your links are confirmation bias spread with statistics you and the journalists don't understand. Take productivity. The UK outputs more goods and services than France depending on the exchange rate when its above 1.14 euro which is the majority of the time. We are a very productive country more so than France most the time. This is despite us giving a lot more foreign aid and us actually spending our 2% on the military unlike the Germans and French who freeload off us. Likewise the French have more land which is an intrinsic benefits but it is multiples by the EU subsidies on agriculture

Sorry what you don't understand is that pure statistics are valueless without context. Whether our GDP is higher or lower than that of France is immaterial if the way the GDP is spread is unequal. You can't simply dismiss research just because it doesn't agree with your view of the world. The journalists are not inventing the research themselves....they are publishing it!

Crime is down compared to most of history. Just like the stock market or housing market or currency its never a one way street but the likely road is downwards for crime. I don't credit this to the Tories I think crime would have gone down irrespective of who was in power and will continue to go down irrespective of who is in power. Soon software will be so powerful and cameras everywhere (especially as cara go digital) whenever anyone commits a crime it will be easy to solve as the software will be able to look at millions of cameras and find a persons movements before and after the crime. With that sort of ability crinal activity will fall as crime will pay a lot less.

This is the area of my expertise and you are again wrong. Technology plays a part in theft of cars etc but social factors are highly significant and so is the way the police operate. The recording of sexual crime has improved and the reporting of domestic violence has also improved. There is a greater awareness of these crimes now but what cannot be ignored is that the police JIGSAW teams and the MAPPA panels have been severely affected by Govmt cuts in criminal justice services. The privatisation of much of the work of the Probation Service is having severe repercussions for the supervision of offenders and is leading to an increase in SFO's . Our prisons are in a terrible mess and are a national scandal. I know this because I work in prisons and have done this for many years so can compare the present with the past.

Depression and mental health problems were not invented by the Tories NIR do labor have a workable solution above and beyond what is being done.

Our mental health services are another national scandal. Day after day there are examples of this and of how such resources have been cut in recent years. You are again blatantly ignoring reality.

Credit card borrowing and mortgages almost always soar because as the economy grows people build and buy more. We have for instance nearly 2 million more homes than a decade ago two million more homes means some 1 million more mortgages. 2 million more households mean 3-4 million more credit cards.

Yes I agree debt levels are clearly unsustainable

Overall your and the lefts in general problem is to think you are so high minded and moral when you are not anymore moral than a typical Tory voter. Your extreme confirmation bias also betrays logic and fact. The UK is a high wage very low unemployment economy with lots of opportunity. We aren't perfect as there can always be improvements but we are a great country we have lots of freedom and opportunity. The beat time in history to be born is today the best place to be born is the capatilist west

Just empty words...assertion without evidence is meaningless hot air:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/28/britain-damning-low-wage-low-productivity-economy/

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/sep/13/pound-one-year-high-uk-jobs-report-pay-squeeze-business-live

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/21/slow-wage-growth-down-to-return-to-the-past-bank-of-england-chief-economist

Moby

GreatApe wrote: »

Communism doesn't work why the hell do you think you can make it work when everyone else who tried it ended up killing huge chunks of their people and impoverishing almost all the rest.

I have never understood why an assertion that capitalism doesn't work for many people automatically results in a lecture about Stalin and Chairman Mao. I mean isn't there a middle way that some countries seem to follow and are doing pretty well?

There is equality of opportunity in the UK. The problem is this opertinity is based primarily on your genetics and parenting. If you are born smart and to good parents you will do well. If you are born dim you won't do well. If you are born to parents who don't care you won't so well. It's like the stats for children of since mothers more likely to be poor more likely to commit crime and more likely to be jailed.

You start by saying there is equality of opportunity and then go on and list points that contradict what you are saying?

I'm sure you will site examples of people you know who are smart and struggling but all that proves is distributions exist in stats.

So if statistics expose inequity etc we should just ignore them?

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

Sorry what you don't understand is that pure statistics are valueless without context. Whether our GDP is higher or lower than that of France is immaterial if the way the GDP is spread is unequal. You can't simply dismiss research just because it doesn't agree with your view of the world. The journalists are not inventing the research themselves....they are publishing it!

They are publishing research they don't understand

This is the area of my expertise and you are again wrong. Technology plays a part in theft of cars etc but social factors are highly significant and so is the way the police operate. The recording of sexual crime has improved and the reporting of domestic violence has also improved. There is a greater awareness of these crimes now but what cannot be ignored is that the police JIGSAW teams and the MAPPA panels have been severely affected by Govmt cuts in criminal justice services. The privatisation of much of the work of the Probation Service is having severe repercussions for the supervision of offenders and is leading to an increase in SFO's . Our prisons are in a terrible mess and are a national scandal. I know this because I work in prisons and have done this for many years so can compare the present with the past.

You are too biased for me to trust you on this. Also something getting worse does not in and of itself mean a net negative. In the case of public services thee is a given budget so cuts in one place mean less cuts in another or more spending in another you need to look at the tradeoffs. Also your point of comparison is the height of the last boom. Its not fair to compare today to say 2006/2007

Our mental health services are another national scandal. Day after day there are examples of this and of how such resources have been cut in recent years. You are again blatantly ignoring reality.

I have no contact of the mental heath services so I can't comment. However since you cry everything is !!!! in the UK I just find your assertions hard to trust. If you were more fair and rounded and said look 95% of things are good or great and 5% us !!!! I'd listen to you but your crying everyrhing is crap which doesn't true.

Yes I agree debt levels are clearly unsustainable

I didn't say that. Of course the biggest debtor in the UK is the government. Labor spent the last 7 years crying the state needs to spend a lot more.

Just empty words...assertion without evidence is meaningless hot air:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/28/britain-damning-low-wage-low-productivity-economy/

The telegraph is just as susceptible to hiring !!!! journalists as the guardian. They are both wrong the UK is a Roch productive country. Most the time we are a good deal more productive than the French. Only recently after the crash in the pound are the French about half of one percent more productivel but the pound is likely to recover and we will once more be 10-20% more productive than the French.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/sep/13/pound-one-year-high-uk-jobs-report-pay-squeeze-business-live

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/21/slow-wage-growth-down-to-return-to-the-past-bank-of-england-chief-economist

The UK per hour worked is lower productivity because people like you and me sit at work spending 30h a week arguing on forums. Other spend hours on Facebook or amazon or right move. We don't output less we just stay an hour longer at work. If the UK went to a 35 hour work week like the French our productivity per hour would jump but we would be no better off as our productivity per worker would not change.


The UK is a great country. High wages very low unemployment. We and the Americans also give more foreign aid than the French or Germans. We also subsidise the EU with a net 10 billion euros. We also find our military properly while the Germans and most the rest of the EU freeload.
This is a good country but you and your owls whip up a tornado and convince each other the any is falling down.

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

I have never understood why an assertion that capitalism doesn't work for many people automatically results in a lecture about Stalin and Chairman Mao. I mean isn't there a middle way that some countries seem to follow and are doing pretty well?

There hasn't been a communist system that I aware of that has resulted in anything other than pain and suffering if you know of an example I will look onto it.

Socialism in capatilist nations seem to work from around 30%-50% of the economy government funded seems to be sustainable. But its not really fair to say the government is actually that big for instance the government gives over £100 billion in pensions but the pensioners buy mostly private goods and services from it. The UK government while about 45% of the economy is closer to <20% of the workforce

You start by saying there is equality of opportunity and then go on and list points that contradict what you are saying?

No there isn't equality of opportunity there can't be we start from different places. A person born blind to an alcoholic mother isn't going to have the opertinity of your kids. Someone born dim probably won't be able to do too well. Someone born with perfect heath and a good mind if abused by its parents they probably won't turn out too well.

But there is more opertinity given the same circumstances in the UK than most the worlds nations. You can live a good life on the UK so long as you are reasonably functional.

Despite your negative views of me I would be very pro the UK and other rich nations putting in place the infrastructure for poor nations to develop faster. Build out roads fail ports power stations etc in poor countries. I'm not sure what our £10 billion annually goes on but that could lift millions out of poverty if spent on infrastructure.

So if statistics expose inequity etc we should just ignore them?

As a rule I would say ignore most statistics because as a ruel very few people are capable of understanding statistics properly.

Regarding inequality iam happy to hear your proposals what van be done and what the costs are. Of the costs are worthwhile then sure let's do it but if it isn't worthwhile we will have to skip it.

Arklight

westernpromise wrote: »

Sounds like they inherited an utter disaster. Who was that from again?

The boomers.Tory voting, privatising, house build blocking, boomers.

(Text removed by MSE Forum Team)

Cakeguts

There is nothing to stop you from buying a house the same way that a boomer did. However you will have to get rid of the car, the mobile phone in fact any phone, broadband, washing machine, fridge freezer.

You get a house without a fitted kitchen, you buy a freestanding cooker, and a fridge. You don't get central heating or carpets, curtains, or washing machine. You use public transport and if you need a book or newspaper you use the public library. You can also use the public library for computer access. You don't eat out, do your own cooking on the freestanding cooker.

In terms of bills you will have council tax, and electricity there will be no phone bill because you don't have a phone, no television licence because you don't have a television, you will have a radio instead, no gas bill because you don't have any central heating but you will have to buy something to put on your open fire so either wood or coal. The fire will be out during the day when you are at work so you can light it in the evenings when you get home. If you want hot water you can either get a fire with a back boiler or you can have a solid fuel boiler and wait until the water heats up. Furniture you will have to either be given by a family member or save up until you can afford it because you won't have a credit card. You can only spend what is actually in your bank account unless you use hire purchase.

Holidays will be spent visitng a relative in a different part of the country or camping. You can't afford foreign holidays.