Corbynomics: A Dystopia

Eric_the_half_a_bee

Moby wrote: »

I agree there should always be personal responsibility but if you think there is equality of opportunity you are naive

For as long as parents are allowed to take their children on a walk in the park, read to their children at bedtime, talk to them over dinner, or help them with their maths homework, there will never be equality of opportunity. Equality of opportunity is an unachievable aim.

antrobus

Eric_the_half_a_bee wrote: »

.. Equality of opportunity is an unachievable aim.

There is a very long list of 'unachievable' aims; the elimination of crime, poverty, war, a cure for cancer and a whole host of diseases, Etc and so forth.

But, who knows, if you give it a go, you might be able to find a cure for cancer. You might be able to negotiate a peace treaty and end just one war.

Not trying would be the greatest crime.

antrobus

Moby wrote: »

No Antrobus had it right....

If only more people realised that.:)

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

I agree there should always be personal responsibility but if you think there is equality of opportunity you are naive:-

https://youtu.be/v2xGoeKsiDA


.....but everythings OK because Conrad just met a couple who had a nice holiday in Portugal!

Good activity, shows very well how our decisions impact on us and the lives of others. In particular how parental decisions impact upon the child/children.

Pretty much all of the questions he asked are related to a stable family environment between two adults raising children. That if you don't have that environment you're at a disadvantage and the playing field must be evened out for you by the state.

I disagree. My father took his life before my first birthday, I found that out when I was sixteen. It affected me, sure, but my mother gave a toss and my grandparents gave a toss, they taught me what graft meant. How to carve out opportunities for myself regardless of my background. My mothers occupation was cleaning so my socioeconomic background is one of the poorest. None of it stopped me buying my first house at 23 on my own, none of it stopped me studying in my free time when I wasn't behind the counter at a petrol station so I could start a career. None of it made me feel like I had to have holidays abroad, the latest smartphone, console, flash car, branded clothing, meals out, or nights outs in order to cope with my situation.

Our decisions and the decisions of our parents affect each of us dramatically. Equality of opportunity is there for all in the UK, the individual just needs to choose to go and get it, it's not coming on a silver platter and I find it awful that anyone would advocate that it should.

The exercise in the video you posted will be similar under a socialist/communist system. The only difference being there will be less people taking steps forward, more people will be held back. Not because of the state, not because of discrimination, but because of the choices they and their parents make in life. I've consistently maintained that the freedom to choose is also the freedom to succeed or to fail. If we assume that the people at the back in that video have made no bad choices ever, that their situation is only a result of the choices their parents made, and perhaps grandparents. That is not the state holding them back, that is not whites holding them back, that is not white privilege holding them back. None of the leftist narrative has anything to do with the root cause of the problem, nor does it have anything to do with the solution as it focuses on demonising those who achieve. It should be saying to society that these are the people you should try to emulate. No more broken homes!

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure)

Thomas Sowell, a black guy in America with a PhD in economics, a Harvard graduate, believes that the welfare state subsidising unwed pregnancy is a major factor if not the defining factor in the declining African-american family situation. Contributing to if not causing the disparity in opportunity that some perceive, except opportunity was always there, just some parents chose not to give their child that opportunity, some children grow up also not wanting to take advantage of any opportunities available to them seeking rather to perpetuate the cycle of broken homes. That has nothing to do with whites, latinos, asians or any other demographic. They are choices of the parents and the individuals. Which affects all demographics, you only need to watch Jerry Springer or similar to understand that equality of opportunity is there as long as the parents and children themselves take advantage of those that come their way rather than squandering it as so many do.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell)

gadgetmind

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Our decisions and the decisions of our parents affect each of us dramatically. Equality of opportunity is there for all in the UK, the individual just needs to choose to go and get it, it's not coming on a silver platter and I find it awful that anyone would advocate that it should.

Agreed absolutely 100%. I went to a state school in a mining village (where the mine shut when I was about 7) and then a slowly failing school is a slowly failing seaside ex resort, and this didn't hold me back academically or in work/business.

What I did see holding people back was parents telling their kids "education doesn't get you anywhere" and "working hard is sucking up to the man". Fix this common meme and vast numbers of kids etc. would seize the opportunities that already exist.

Moby

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Good activity, shows very well how our decisions impact on us and the lives of others. In particular how parental decisions impact upon the child/children.

Pretty much all of the questions he asked are related to a stable family environment between two adults raising children. That if you don't have that environment you're at a disadvantage and the playing field must be evened out for you by the state.

I disagree. My father took his life before my first birthday, I found that out when I was sixteen. It affected me, sure, but my mother gave a toss and my grandparents gave a toss, they taught me what graft meant. How to carve out opportunities for myself regardless of my background. My mothers occupation was cleaning so my socioeconomic background is one of the poorest. None of it stopped me buying my first house at 23 on my own, none of it stopped me studying in my free time when I wasn't behind the counter at a petrol station so I could start a career. None of it made me feel like I had to have holidays abroad, the latest smartphone, console, flash car, branded clothing, meals out, or nights outs in order to cope with my situation.

Our decisions and the decisions of our parents affect each of us dramatically. Equality of opportunity is there for all in the UK, the individual just needs to choose to go and get it, it's not coming on a silver platter and I find it awful that anyone would advocate that it should.

The exercise in the video you posted will be similar under a socialist/communist system. The only difference being there will be less people taking steps forward, more people will be held back. Not because of the state, not because of discrimination, but because of the choices they and their parents make in life. I've consistently maintained that the freedom to choose is also the freedom to succeed or to fail. If we assume that the people at the back in that video have made no bad choices ever, that their situation is only a result of the choices their parents made, and perhaps grandparents. That is not the state holding them back, that is not whites holding them back, that is not white privilege holding them back. None of the leftist narrative has anything to do with the root cause of the problem, nor does it have anything to do with the solution as it focuses on demonising those who achieve. It should be saying to society that these are the people you should try to emulate. No more broken homes!

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure)

Thomas Sowell, a black guy in America with a PhD in economics, a Harvard graduate, believes that the welfare state subsidising unwed pregnancy is a major factor if not the defining factor in the declining African-american family situation. Contributing to if not causing the disparity in opportunity that some perceive, except opportunity was always there, just some parents chose not to give their child that opportunity, some children grow up also not wanting to take advantage of any opportunities available to them seeking rather to perpetuate the cycle of broken homes. That has nothing to do with whites, latinos, asians or any other demographic. They are choices of the parents and the individuals. Which affects all demographics, you only need to watch Jerry Springer or similar to understand that equality of opportunity is there as long as the parents and children themselves take advantage of those that come their way rather than squandering it as so many do.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell)

That's a big post to say if the parents get it right the children can succeed, especially if other family members can fulfill the role of a deceased parent. I know that already. Of course we can all think of examples of people succeeding despite adversity. That proves nothing. Like you and Gadget below I have my own story of doing pretty well despite a difficult background....but if I had a more privileged background I may have done even better! You also say that children at the back are in that position because of bad decisions by their parents!....ever thought their parents suffered similar disadvantages to their children so in turn didn't develop the values or skills to raise them with good values? Material hardship in your upbringing didn't stop you achieving as you say....but what if you'd been placed in Local Authority Care and physically or/and sexually abused? What if instead of a deceased father ...you had a father who was abusive to his partner and you, or parents that didn't care if you lived or died, or parents who cared about you except when they were using 'crack' or drunk. What if you were raised from infancy on a sink estate where gang culture and drugs is rife? Are you seriously saying to me that an Afro Carribean child raised on the North Peckham Estate has statistically the same life chances as a middle class white child a couple of miles away in Dulwich. No way! I work in the Criminal Justice System, more than half of my offenders are black or other ethnic minorities...they are not genetically predisposed to criminality!...however it is no accident that they all tend to come from the same deprived areas and have many of the issues in their background I describe above. They don't have any positive role models. Their role models are high status gang members making lots of money from selling drugs and of course as soon as they get a conviction their job chances plummet. How can you take advantage of any opportunities that come your way unless you realise they are opportunities!

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

I agree there should always be personal responsibility but if you think there is equality of opportunity you are naive:-

https://youtu.be/v2xGoeKsiDA

If you did the same exercise in France what do you think the outcome would be? More or less the same?

Broken families lead to broken kids or at best disadvantaged kids. How do you propose to fix broken families? Do you think if we taxed the rich a bit more a poor man that is addicted to gambling and is abusive to his wife and kids will suddenly become a role model of a husband/father?

The UK is a great country with high wages and lots of opportunity
Some children will have !!!! lives because of their parents and that is true in the USA and it is True in France it is true irrespective of the economic system a country operates in

gadgetmind

Moby wrote: »

Like you and Gadget below I have my own story of doing pretty well despite a difficult background....but if I had a more privileged background I may have done even better!

And you could have done a whole load worse, which many do

You also say that children at the back are in that position because of bad decisions by their parents!....ever thought their parents suffered similar disadvantages to their children so in turn didn't develop the values or skills to raise them with good values?

Yes, and that's the cycle we have to break.

They don't have any positive role models. Their role models are high status gang members making lots of money from selling drugs and of course as soon as they get a conviction their job chances plummet. How can you take advantage of any opportunities that come your way unless you realise they are opportunities!

Yes, parents and peer group are important and I'm sure we could argue endlessly about which has more weight.

That we have an education system that's not only free but compulsory (something many in the world can only dream of!) yet some don't make the most of it is a crying shame.

LHW99

Equality of opportunity is an unachievable aim

Whether equality of opportunity is attainable may be up for discussion, the main issue IMO, is that equality of opportunity does not imply equality of outcome.

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

That's a big post to say if the parents get it right the children can succeed, especially if other family members can fulfill the role of a deceased parent. I know that already. Of course we can all think of examples of people succeeding despite adversity. That proves nothing. Like you and Gadget below I have my own story of doing pretty well despite a difficult background....but if I had a more privileged background I may have done even better! You also say that children at the back are in that position because of bad decisions by their parents!....ever thought their parents suffered similar disadvantages to their children so in turn didn't develop the values or skills to raise them with good values? Material hardship in your upbringing didn't stop you achieving as you say....but what if you'd been placed in Local Authority Care and physically or/and sexually abused? What if instead of a deceased father ...you had a father who was abusive to his partner and you, or parents that didn't care if you lived or died, or parents who cared about you except when they were using 'crack' or drunk. What if you were raised from infancy on a sink estate where gang culture and drugs is rife? Are you seriously saying to me that an Afro Carribean child raised on the North Peckham Estate has statistically the same life chances as a middle class white child a couple of miles away in Dulwich. No way! I work in the Criminal Justice System, more than half of my offenders are black or other ethnic minorities...they are not genetically predisposed to criminality!...however it is no accident that they all tend to come from the same deprived areas and have many of the issues in their background I describe above. They don't have any positive role models. Their role models are high status gang members making lots of money from selling drugs and of course as soon as they get a conviction their job chances plummet. How can you take advantage of any opportunities that come your way unless you realise they are opportunities!

What it shows is that extended family is what saves bad situations not the state

People need to look after their extended families not rely on corbyn as corbyn cant and wont help them