Corbynomics: A Dystopia

antrobus

Tromking wrote: »

Has the benefits of the post-war house and hospital building splurge by a near bankrupt Britain been debunked in a similar fashion.

I have no idea.

But I do know that the UK was bankrupt in 1945. The USA bailed us out, and the Attlee government practised austerity as it whittled down the deficit.

I believe that "building splurge" of which you speak was a 1950s thing. Macmillan was pretty keen on building houses. And the real splurge was later in the 60s and 70s.

I don't know about hospitals. Do you have any stats on hospital building?

.string.

More recently
Labour left taxpayer £60billion bill for new hospitals

Interesting.

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

Sweden, Denmark, Germany are good examples

Sweden Denmark and Norway all are gifted in very high natural resources which we can not just copy. Norway has massive amounts of oil and gas and Sweden huge hydropower if we had the same on a per capita basis we would be one of the wolrds richest nations. Denmark is also gifted in natural resources they are a net exporter of oil and gas and food. If you or Jeremy know where the UK might find a few monster oil fields and gas fields and a few hundred million acres of fertile land then I too would vote for you but Im guessing Dear Leader isn't able to magic up natural resources?

Also I am not too sure you understand other countries much at all. For instance Denmark has a VAT rate of 25% on almost everything including food. Is dear leader going to put VAT to 25% on everything? That is going to hit the poor hard. My view is there should be VAT on groceries but its probably not shared by the left

and I believe we could do better than we are.

Yes and I am sure there are people in norway denmark sweden etc that also say the same about their governments because its a dam easy statement to say

How about you admit and say the following too. The uk is a great country with high wages low unemployment and lots of opportunity

This country is class ridden and the rich hold too high a proportion of the wealth and control too much of the distribution of resources.

Just empty statements. The rich dont control any of the distribution of resources the government controls that. The rich control too much of the wealth....... again an empty statement also empty in the fact that you dont know how wealth exists. For example a £100 million mansion in kensington how are you going to distribute that? it is one house you cant split it up into 1000 houses. You cant tax it much because if you tax it the value plummets. A lot of wealth is like that.

To prove my point in 2008 the rich wealth was cut in half. Stock market halved bonds crashed and even house prices fell. Was 2008 more equal than today? What happened to all that wealth how did it disappear?

Do you see what I am getting at? The rich dont hold £1 trillion in cash under their beds for you to take and spend. They dont hold £1 trillion in cash savings in a bank for you to take a robin hood it. The rich own £1 trillion in property shares and businesses which cant be robin hood distributed. You take their £100 million mansion and you cant split that up into 1000 properties to give them away to the poor. What happens is corbyn decides he and his mates deserve to live in that £100 million house once it is seized. All the animals in the farm are equal but some are more equal than others.

Call Corbyn a communist, a mad man, a terrorst sympathiser, whatever....he is striking a chord with more and more people and that's good. Even if he never wins an election he is changing the terms of the debate. The tories are having to consider policies they would never normally countenance because of his cut through. People hate him because of it. I think he's a good man.

Primarily I call him and his supporters stupid,

If you want to help the poor, which I want to do, what you want to do is improve productivity, improve technology, improve infrastructure, improve knowledge information and science. And generally, like it or loath it those things mostly happen the quickest and deployed the fastest in free market capitalist countries.

No amount of robbin hoddin can save the poor, just look at china almost 99% poverty 30 years ago and in 30 years time they will be one of the richest nations on earth.

GreatApe

Tromking wrote: »

You forgot Atlee's formation of the NHS/welfare state

Why didn't left wing government pre Atlee form the NHS?

What you completely miss is the fact that technology and progress took us to the point where an NHS was possible. It was not just a matter of people wanting or or voting for it that's just childish and stupid. The NHS has grown massively over the decades in funding and manpower again because as time went on more technological progress meant we could dedicate more money and manpower to healthcare and less to farming and processing and manufacturing etc

antrobus

Moby wrote: »

Sweden, Denmark, Germany are good examples..

Good examples of what?

All three are pretty much capitalist. And as far as I'm aware they all retain a reasonably rational centre-left party that has not been taken over by a bunch of crackpot pseudo-Trots.:)

antrobus

GreatApe wrote: »

Why didn't left wing government pre Atlee form the NHS?...

The only pre-war Labour governments were McDonald's minority governments. The first lasted ten months, the second a couple of years, but got rather distracted by the depression. I don't either was in a position to do anything much.

Moby

GreatApe wrote: »

Sweden Denmark and Norway all are gifted in very high natural resources which we can not just copy. Norway has massive amounts of oil and gas and Sweden huge hydropower if we had the same on a per capita basis we would be one of the wolrds richest nations. Denmark is also gifted in natural resources they are a net exporter of oil and gas and food. If you or Jeremy know where the UK might find a few monster oil fields and gas fields and a few hundred million acres of fertile land then I too would vote for you but Im guessing Dear Leader isn't able to magic up natural resources?

I notice you selectively omitted Germany. Couldn't find relevant statistics on google? The North Sea Oil and the coal reserves we had must have been a figment of my imagination.

Also I am not too sure you understand other countries much at all. For instance Denmark has a VAT rate of 25% on almost everything including food. Is dear leader going to put VAT to 25% on everything? That is going to hit the poor hard. My view is there should be VAT on groceries but its probably not shared by the left

Wouldn'd agree with putting 25% VAT on food but I agree how you distribute resources more equitably matters.

Yes and I am sure there are people in norway denmark sweden etc that also say the same about their governments because its a dam easy statement to say

How about you admit and say the following too. The uk is a great country with high wages low unemployment and lots of opportunity

....Ummm isn't your comment above 'a damn easy statement to say'? High wages give me a break:-
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-workers-have-had-the-worst-wage-growth-in-the-oecd-except-greece-a7773246.html

Lots of opportunity...what planet are you on:-
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-racism-review-government-race-audit-inequality-a7991316.html

Just empty statements. The rich dont control any of the distribution of resources the government controls that. The rich control too much of the wealth....... again an empty statement also empty in the fact that you dont know how wealth exists. For example a £100 million mansion in kensington how are you going to distribute that? it is one house you cant split it up into 1000 houses. You cant tax it much because if you tax it the value plummets. A lot of wealth is like that.

...and who controls the Government?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/15/britains-richest-1-percent-own-same-as-bottom-55-population

https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk

To prove my point in 2008 the rich wealth was cut in half. Stock market halved bonds crashed and even house prices fell. Was 2008 more equal than today? What happened to all that wealth how did it disappear?

Nonsense:-
https://www.lowimpact.org/how-has-the-2008-financial-crash-affected-the-wealth-of-the-rich-and-the-poor-and-what-can-we-do-about-it/

Do you see what I am getting at? The rich dont hold £1 trillion in cash under their beds for you to take and spend. They dont hold £1 trillion in cash savings in a bank for you to take a robin hood it. The rich own £1 trillion in property shares and businesses which cant be robin hood distributed. You take their £100 million mansion and you cant split that up into 1000 properties to give them away to the poor. What happens is corbyn decides he and his mates deserve to live in that £100 million house once it is seized. All the animals in the farm are equal but some are more equal than others.

Geez ...out come the cliches!
There are ways and means.....even undertaker Phil is having a look to see what he can do in the budget:-
http://www.cityam.com/273873/budget-2017-philip-hammond-mulling-tax-cuts-young-paid
See what I mean... Jeremy has them running scared;) Like I said he's changed the terms of the debate. Do you seriously think Hammond would even be considering such measures prior to June's election?

Primarily I call him and his supporters stupid,

Thoughtful, balanced point there!;)

If you want to help the poor, which I want to do, what you want to do is improve productivity, improve technology, improve infrastructure, improve knowledge information and science. And generally, like it or loath it those things mostly happen the quickest and deployed the fastest in free market capitalist countries.

Whereas Jeremy's fiendish plan is to destroy all these things....yes I know the script!

No amount of robbin hoddin can save the poor, just look at china almost 99% poverty 30 years ago and in 30 years time they will be one of the richest nations on earth.

It's amazing you write such a post and end it by saying you want to 'help the poor'...seriously!
https://www.chinacenter.net/2014/china_currents/13-2/market-vs-government-in-managing-the-chinese-economy/
Capitalism in China is managed by the Government. The state controls things to avoid the worst excesses of East European and Russian capitalism and reform is driven by govmt policy.

I recommend a good book:-
Years of Recovery: British Economic Policy 1945-51 by Alec Cairncross

antrobus

Moby wrote: »

...Capitalism in China is managed by the Government. The state controls things to avoid the worst excesses of East European and Russian capitalism and reform is driven by govmt policy....

Maybe. But it's market capitalism, not the state capitalism of Corbyn and Co. Markets work, state control does not.

The worst excesses of Soviet state capitalism would be the gulags and forced collectivisation. The worst excesses of Chinese state capitalism would be the Great Leap Forward and 45 million dead.

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

GreatApe wrote: »

I notice you selectively omitted Germany.

Germany is not particularly socialist in that 44% of GDP is government spending
That is what the UK was at in 2014 and I doubt you think we had a fantastic socialist government in 2014?

Couldn't find relevant statistics on google? The North Sea Oil and the coal reserves we had must have been a figment of my imagination.

Yes the UK was also blessed with north sea oil a lot of it but since we are a large country compared to Norway or Sweden or Denmark it means our figures are comparatively small on a per capita basis. The UK output does not even meet half of our oil and gas needs our coal output for all intents is now close to zero (4 million tons pa which is nowt) and all of them are falling still.

That you are not aware of this fundamental difference shows how naive you are. Sweden and Norway in particular have so much natural resources that it is almost pointless looking at them as a comparison as what you are doing is comparing natural resources not if large government spending is good or not.

It is better to compare the UK to France

....Ummm isn't your comment above 'a damn easy statement to say'? High wages give me a break:-

Yes my statement is easy to make and easy to prove.
UK GDP is aprox £30,000 per capita
That is high most the world have a much lower figure
It is even above most the EU and it is above the French (when the pound is above 1.12 euro which it is most the time)

Lots of opportunity...what planet are you on:

Earth
Can you name another country you would prefer to live in?
And dont say Denmark or Germany because you can book a bus ticket to there today yet you dont.

...and who controls the Government?

The government control the government
Parlement controls the government
And every five years or less the people select the government

I know you hate it that the Tories won in 2010 in 2015 in 2017 but that is the system we operate in and it is a good system

Geez ...out come the cliches!
There are ways and means.....even undertaker Phil is having a look to see what he can do in the budget:-
http://www.cityam.com/273873/budget-2017-philip-hammond-mulling-tax-cuts-young-paid

Yes government can move taxes on the margins take a handful of billion here and give a handful of billion there. It does not chance the percentage of government vs the economy in a large way. What corbyn and yourself would like to do is swing the UK from about 42% of the economy as the government towards 55% of the economy as the government. That wont be possible and it wont even be populat with your pals becuase it will involve things like putting VAT to 25% including on food which you say you are against

While you think of 'just tax the rich more and give it to the poor like our hero robbin hood' you miss the fundamentals. How much of the economy should be controlled by the government? We are at 42% and were as high as 48% in 2010.

See what I mean... Jeremy has them running scared;) Like I said he's changed the terms of the debate. Do you seriously think Hammond would even be considering such measures prior to June's election?

What do youu think Hammond is going to do, put VAT up to 25% on everything and increase the NHS budget by 20%? That would be significant but that is not what is going to happen

Whereas Jeremy's fiendish plan is to destroy all these things....yes I know the script!

It is inevitable. Communist china gave the world what? Nothing. Capitalist America gave the world.....so much I dont even need to highlight it to you

It's amazing you write such a post and end it by saying you want to 'help the poor'...seriously!
https://www.chinacenter.net/2014/china_currents/13-2/market-vs-government-in-managing-the-chinese-economy/
Capitalism in China is managed by the Government. The state controls things to avoid the worst excesses of East European and Russian capitalism and reform is driven by govmt policy.

China is not doing much different to what America or the UK did.
For instance much of Americas power stations were built under state ownership even to this day a lot of it is state mandated and regulated profit stations. Likewise UK did similar with its generation board and France with EDF which they still majority own etc

A quick google shows china government spending at only 25% of their GDP that is much lower than the UK and even lower than the USA

Also while china is a much better off country vs 20 years ago it is yet to be seen if they will fall into the middle income trap or go on to become a true ~$50,000 per capital economy.

And even if china was the richest country on earth I wouldnt want to live in a one party system where you can disappear without a trace one night doubt you would either

I recommend a good book:-

No thanks I know this country is a great country with good opportunities and lots of freedom I dont need a book to confirm it

Conrad

Newsnight now, discussing over sensitive authoritarian progressives

Bellow no-platformed, as I say, the left eating its own guts

Discussing trigger warnings and safe spaces another newish leftist censorship tool

This has been going on in the US for sometime and the U.K. is catching up.