Corbynomics: A Dystopia

Moby

Boredatwrork wrote: »

I think a lot in the left would be thoroughly surprised to know that many on the right who voted Tory, basically want a similar society to those who voted left, and the only real difference is how we go about getting there.
Trying to win the moral argument is where the left fails, especially in many cases as they turn out to be the more vicious and bigoted when pushed, this from my experience primarily comes down to their belief they are on some sort of holy almost pious quest against good and evil and so this justifies any tactic they can come up, as its all for the greater good they believe, And as people become older wiser they tend to see through it.

There's viciousness and bigotry everywhere, from all political colours. From my experience the viciousness and bigotry directed at Corbyn and Abbott both on these forums and in the press has been particularly awful. Just scroll back on this thread! I simply don't accept the premise of your other point. The Right thinks that the breakdown of the family is the source of crime and poverty, and this they very insightfully blame on the left. What they fail to acknowledge however is that families and 'family values' are crushed by grinding poverty, which also makes violent crime and drugs attractive alternatives to desperate people and the disadvantaged. Family values are no less corrupted by the corrosive effects of individualism, consumerism, and the accumulation of wealth...the very things the typical tory worships under the guise of misnomers such as 'the free market' or 'competition'. How hypocritical I say. If the the typical tory really does want a good society a lot of their values seem pretty confused to me.

Boredatwrork

Moby wrote: »

There's viciousness and bigotry everywhere, from all political colours. From my experience the viciousness and bigotry directed at Corbyn and Abbott both on these forums and in the press has been particularly awful. Just scroll back on this thread! I simply don't accept the premise of your other point. The Right thinks that the breakdown of the family is the source of crime and poverty, and this they very insightfully blame on the left. What they fail to acknowledge however is that families and 'family values' are crushed by grinding poverty, which also makes violent crime and drugs attractive alternatives to desperate people and the disadvantaged. Family values are no less corrupted by the corrosive effects of individualism, consumerism, and the accumulation of wealth...the very things the typical tory worships under the guise of misnomers such as 'the free market' or 'competition'. How hypocritical I say. If the the typical tory really does want a good society a lot of their values seem pretty confused to me.

I agree both sides get a bit carried away, but objectively honestly it usually is the left that resorts to words like 'evil' as if its some good vs bad crusade, it is them they seem to want to simplfy it to such crude 6th form politics, the goodies and the baddies. In regards to Corbyn and Abbott both have rather dubious histories to some degree, Corbyn has had some dodgy links and Abbot has on record said some pretty appalling things, yet is the first to run for cover as some kind of victim the moment the heat is turned around, she cannot stand on a podium at a rally and state "the white man loves to play divide and conquer" with out being called out on that, for all her talk on racism, how the hell does she think she can get away with that as an advocate of supposed equality, she should of gone long ago quite frankly.
In regards to the breakdown of the family, there is a mountain of evidence to support that strong stable family unit produce better, more motivated citizens, drugs and crime are offshoots mainly coming from a cynical victimhood mentality, that has more to do with culture than government, this is then exploited, the people are turned into victims of the state and the left keep this wheel turning as they can trade misery for votes, it suits them as they need an eternal state of misery to keep them afloat and it suits the afflicted population to see themselves as hapless victims, rather than masters of their own destiny. The left need to keep people down, they need to keep people thinking they are oppressed and not responsible for their own bad choices or actions or else where would the left be. The people who do get out of their situation are the ones that choose to by their own hard work and determination, of course some receive external help, but most of the time it comes down to pulling yourself up by the boot strings.

In regards poverty, just like the word "racism", it is flung about so freely and loosely, its hard to define the term now, it is being attributed perceived and exploited to any given situation to a point where it has become meaningless, and if you question any accusation you are obviously instantly complicit. These arguments inevitably appear to fall on deaf ears, as so many examples turn out to be red herrings, manipulated stats, distorted stories or just downright lies, its just another daily outrage, the baby gets throw out with the bathwater.
People are tired of it, it loses all sense of meaning and perspective.

Malthusian

Moby wrote: »

Completely twisted what I said didn't you. Where in my post did I say I go through live fantasising about being a millionaire? Also I didn't say British Afro Caribbean's have to do anything. I was describing what my experience is from working with young men in London. Perhaps I should not bother and just tell them to watch tv and go on the internet instead.

Better they do that than listen to you telling them that Britain is horrible and they don't stand a chance in our racist selfish society.

setmefree2 wrote: »

Things you'll never read when a Labour Corbyn government is in power

"Government borrowing at lowest September level for 10 years......."

Oh you'll read it, it just won't be true.

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

I've got a load of people I'm trying to find an extended family for....any offers?

What do you think is going to happen if Corbyn gets into government

Force decent people to adopt children (and young adults) who either haven't got parents or have !!!! parents???

life is largely determined by your parents not just their wealth but how much time and effort they put into parenting. Corbyn can't change that. I don't know what's worse that you're too stupid to see that or that you are aware of it and phrase all your debates in a way to make it look like the Tories are responsible for all this and a left wing government can and will fix it

Moby

Boredatwrork wrote: »

I agree both sides get a bit carried away, but objectively honestly it usually is the left that resorts to words like 'evil' as if its some good vs bad crusade, it is them they seem to want to simplfy it to such crude 6th form politics, the goodies and the baddies. In regards to Corbyn and Abbott both have rather dubious histories to some degree, Corbyn has had some dodgy links and Abbot has on record said some pretty appalling things, yet is the first to run for cover as some kind of victim the moment the heat is turned around, she cannot stand on a podium at a rally and state "the white man loves to play divide and conquer" with out being called out on that, for all her talk on racism, how the hell does she think she can get away with that as an advocate of supposed equality, she should of gone long ago quite frankly.
In regards to the breakdown of the family, there is a mountain of evidence to support that strong stable family unit produce better, more motivated citizens, drugs and crime are offshoots mainly coming from a cynical victimhood mentality, that has more to do with culture than government, this is then exploited, the people are turned into victims of the state and the left keep this wheel turning as they can trade misery for votes, it suits them as they need an eternal state of misery to keep them afloat and it suits the afflicted population to see themselves as hapless victims, rather than masters of their own destiny. The left need to keep people down, they need to keep people thinking they are oppressed and not responsible for their own bad choices or actions or else where would the left be. The people who do get out of their situation are the ones that choose to by their own hard work and determination, of course some receive external help, but most of the time it comes down to pulling yourself up by the boot strings.

In regards poverty, just like the word "racism", it is flung about so freely and loosely, its hard to define the term now, it is being attributed perceived and exploited to any given situation to a point where it has become meaningless, and if you question any accusation you are obviously instantly complicit. These arguments inevitably appear to fall on deaf ears, as so many examples turn out to be red herrings, manipulated stats, distorted stories or just downright lies, its just another daily outrage, the baby gets throw out with the bathwater.
People are tired of it, it loses all sense of meaning and perspective.

I don't agree at all....the 'evil' word and the desire for a 'moral crusade' is mainly used by the religious right, especially in the States re. anti abortion etc. You ignore real victims by saying they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and talk about a victimhood mentality in such a dismissive all encompassing way. It's so easy to talk about being a master of your own destiny until something goes wrong, like illness, divorce, bereavement etc. Tell a child victim of trafficking or abuse that they are a master of their own destiny! You talk about 'culture' - who on earth do you think promotes the culture of a given society, yes the very value system I mentioned earlier, mass consumerism, advertising etc...the continual message that success is measured by what you have instead of what you are, that greed is good etc. Capitalism is about exploitation, the selling of a consumerist dream and it's based on the idea that you spend your hard earned cash for material goods and that makes the economy go round! These forces are the very thing corroding the 'strong family unit! Did you not read what I said above? As Harry Truman said, "I wonder how many times you have to be hit on the head before you find out who's hitting you? By the way those who are most miserable don't tend to vote at all because they are socially excluded and those who damn well make sure they do vote are the boomers.....because they are perfectly happy to keep things as they are ...thank you very much!

Moby

Malthusian wrote: »

Better they do that than listen to you telling them that Britain is horrible and they don't stand a chance in our racist selfish society.



Oh you'll read it, it just won't be true.

So as well as twisting what I say...you put words in my mouth now as well. What I actually say to people is vote for Jeremy Corbyn and sadly for you more and more of them are listening!

Malthusian

Tell a child victim of trafficking or abuse that they are a master of their own destiny!

What should we tell them instead? That life is crap and they'll be at the mercy of people more powerful than them forever?

burnleymik

Moby wrote: »

I don't agree at all....the 'evil' word and the desire for a 'moral crusade' is mainly used by the religious right, especially in the States re. anti abortion etc.

It doesn't take much looking around to see the ones who mainly use this type of language is the left. The problem is the context it is used is mainly against anyone who doesn't directly agree with them. They don't understand how it hardens the resolve against their position when all they do is call names and label people who disagree with them. They would be far better off trying to reason and debate them rather than organising protests and trying to shut down their speech.

Moby wrote: »

You ignore real victims by saying they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and talk about a victimhood mentality in such a dismissive all encompassing way. It's so easy to talk about being a master of your own destiny until something goes wrong, like illness, divorce, bereavement etc. Tell a child victim of trafficking or abuse that they are a master of their own destiny!

You do not give the human race enough credit. People overcome incredible adversity to go on and succeed. Just look at Paralympic athletes for example. Lots of people have been through horrific life experiences, but refused to be a victim and achieved incredible successes. Encouraging people to believe they are always the victim really doesn't help them.

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

I don't agree at all....the 'evil' word and the desire for a 'moral crusade' is mainly used by the religious right, especially in the States re. anti abortion etc. You ignore real victims by saying they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and talk about a victimhood mentality in such a dismissive all encompassing way. It's so easy to talk about being a master of your own destiny until something goes wrong, like illness, divorce, bereavement etc. Tell a child victim of trafficking or abuse that they are a master of their own destiny! You talk about 'culture' - who on earth do you think promotes the culture of a given society, yes the very value system I mentioned earlier, mass consumerism, advertising etc...the continual message that success is measured by what you have instead of what you are, that greed is good etc. Capitalism is about exploitation, the selling of a consumerist dream and it's based on the idea that you spend your hard earned cash for material goods and that makes the economy go round! These forces are the very thing corroding the 'strong family unit! Did you not read what I said above? As Harry Truman said, "I wonder how many times you have to be hit on the head before you find out who's hitting you? By the way those who are most miserable don't tend to vote at all because they are socially excluded and those who damn well make sure they do vote are the boomers.....because they are perfectly happy to keep things as they are ...thank you very much!

Not voting because they're socially excluded? If they don't vote - that's their fault no one else is to blame for that, no one. Period.

The word evil is used extensively when left wing supporters refer to the Conservative party. It's not just the preserve of the religious right who have been absent from the UK as a political force for many years. What you say simply isn't applicable here, but what Boredatwork says about the left using the term 'evil' is indeed the case.

Everyone essentially is the master of their own destiny within a regulated system, else we'd all procure weapons and do as we please. Why is it that some people from poor socioeconomic backgrounds, minority backgrounds and other "oppressed" backgrounds achieve? What is it about them that makes them successful and why do their peers not achieve and seek to blame others for their lack of achievement?

The reason for asking that is because, as it appears to me, if some of these people do achieve and they come from the same background, the same broken homes, the same level of wealth, the same colour of skin, the same gender, it must be down to the individual choices they make and their merit since the system has already bestowed success some of these people. It cannot be systemic discrimination. This is what makes a mockery of affirmative action no matter what the current government says about minorities in the workforce.

Success is measured based on your goals. If your goal is to do voluntary work in your spare time whilst you raise your family and you kids grow up and achieve their goals whilst you've been helping wider society in some way, you have succeeded. If your goal is to earn a good salary and you do, again you've succeeded. If you don't succeed at achieving your goals, who is to blame? If you set yourself the goal of stopping smoking for October (Stoptober?) and you fail, who is to blame? Is it the advertisers? Is it the manufacturers of cigarettes, or perhaps the guy who runs the corner shop for selling them to you?

Or maybe it's just you.

#victimculture

Moby

GreatApe wrote: »

What do you think is going to happen if Corbyn gets into government

Force decent people to adopt children (and young adults) who either haven't got parents or have !!!! parents???

life is largely determined by your parents not just their wealth but how much time and effort they put into parenting. Corbyn can't change that. I don't know what's worse that you're too stupid to see that or that you are aware of it and phrase all your debates in a way to make it look like the Tories are responsible for all this and a left wing government can and will fix it

You got the first bit partly right....parents do play a big part in how children turn out; don't underestimate society though either. That's why the state intervenes where it can to support families...Sure Start was decimated by the tories. ESA was taken away. Thatcher was a milk snatcher and the present lot are doing what they can to destroy families through their welfare policies and student debt. Social services and community services have been decimated by austerity and the NHS is on it's knees. It's not that I'm 'stupid' imo...it's that many people are too stupid to realise when they are being shafted!Tories blab on about culture being the defining social energy. They fear the fact that politics can change culture though. Women got the vote because they challenged the prevailing culture of the time...not because of it!