Morrisons Milk for Farmers

leveller2911

lisa110rry wrote: »

It is not only farmers who receive the benefit of red diesel. I work in construction where vehicles which do not travel on the road (under their own steam) use red diesel and also, our boat on the Broads uses diesel which is charged at 60/40 (can't remember if that proportion is white/red or red/white, I suspect the former). For the avidance of doubt they don't mix two colours to get pink, it's just the charge rate.

I think the red diesel issue is again another anomaly that I don't understand. We have governments in this country that will bring in all sorts of stealth taxes to take more money off the public such as insurance premium tax, vat on untilities, energy surcharge on glass etc but they allow a section of society to pay less for fuel.

We need haulage companies to bring the goods from the factories to the shops which I think most people would see as essential ,they don't get any help on the cost of diesel fuel so I don't see why a tractor,fork lift truck,dumpers, JCB etc should be a special case.


The perverse thing is that families whos total household income is just above the threshold for claiming tax credits etc (£32k) will be subsidising the farming industry , many of whom will be millionaires or at least net assets of £1 million +.

Lets also not forget that farmers have preferential treatment with regards to planning. I lived and worked in the country all my life and I've lost count of the number of "stockmans cottages" that have been built by farmers for their kids to live in , many of whom don't even work on the land. You try getting Planning permission on the green belt..........

I think the link below is pretty much spot on ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pL-b4gSi3Q

pendragon_arther

Zola. wrote: »

I've never met a poor farmer. Also, why is this in the DIY section... are you planning on building a milking shed?

How many farmers have you met? Your cliche goes back a few decades before the greedy supermarkets cut back on how much they paid dairy farmers. Milk is considered by the greedy bastads as a loss leader just to get the punters instore. to the detriment of the farmers. Now the farmers produce milk at a cost to themselves at more than what they're paid. I'd much rather pay more for milk and allow my conscience to rest easy knowing the farmers aren't operating at a loss.

ryder72

pendragon_arther - I think you are missing the point. No one wants anyone to operate at a loss. After all a business needs to make a profit to survive and healthy businesses are the key to a healthy economy. But the operate at all when one makes a loss is a business decision.

Businesses in all sectors have to maintain profitability and make difficult decisions to remain profitable. Business owners all over the country decide to enter and exit trading sectors based on their ability to survive and this is deemed to be the natural way. So why should milk production be any different. If farmers absolutely cannot make money from producing milk, perhaps the answer is to sell their herds and do something else. No one has held a gun to their head to keep producing milk.

I have heard arguments stating that Britain wont remain self sufficient if they all stopped producing milk. Well so what. We arent self sufficient in a lot of other things where we used to be and the world hasnt ended.

pendragon_arther

ryder72 wrote: »

pendragon_arther - I think you are missing the point. No one wants anyone to operate at a loss. After all a business needs to make a profit to survive and healthy businesses are the key to a healthy economy. But the operate at all when one makes a loss is a business decision.

Businesses in all sectors have to maintain profitability and make difficult decisions to remain profitable. Business owners all over the country decide to enter and exit trading sectors based on their ability to survive and this is deemed to be the natural way. So why should milk production be any different. If farmers absolutely cannot make money from producing milk, perhaps the answer is to sell their herds and do something else. No one has held a gun to their head to keep producing milk.

I have heard arguments stating that Britain wont remain self sufficient if they all stopped producing milk. Well so what. We arent self sufficient in a lot of other things where we used to be and the world hasnt ended.

I rather think you're missing the point. Most dairy farmers were born into the job, they know nothing else. If you knew how the buyers at supermarkets squeeze their producers until the pips squeak then you'd realise how much muscle the supermarkets hold over them. Just the other day dairy farmers protested in Brussels and the UK :

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-10/explainer-why-are-dairy-farmers-protesting/

https://www.rt.com/business/311848-uk-dairy-farmers-protest/

This country has already seen the decline of many industries over the years, I don't want to see yet another one go down the toilet pan.

snowcat75

Ozzuk wrote: »

I must admit without understanding the full justification I'm with Leveller on this. I really don't get why we should subsidise farming, I'm happy to be educated if anyone has any good reasons but they are a business, they exist to make money and if they aren't then they need to diversify. Same as any other business.

There is uproar when the banks are bailed out, and I mostly understand why we did that but farming? Business fail all the time - sure there should be help (and there often is) but unilaterally 'buying' a product for someone to pour it down a drain is just prolonging the inevitable.

Subsidy is very simple, Govements have used it to guarantee supplies of food cheaply and available all year round, There is a political term for it that the name escapes me but it basically means that the populas as a whole if its belly's are fed then, there's basic contentment food shortages = Riots and civil unrest.


The problem is with food production is you are committing for a long time before the final product is produced, so there's little flexibility to suddenly produce a product if it becomes short, If wheat runs out at the beginning of feb on the WORLDWIDE markets that's it the world starves until june, the beginning of the Europe harvest.


Non temperate climates like Australia, and Russia to certain extents have spasmodic harvests and complete failures.. It only takes one failed harvest in one content to put worldwide production in jepody it does happen.


Personally id rather see the public not have it so good, spikes and shortages that a non subsided euro system would create.


When people are hungry they would have far more respect for where there food comes from.

teddysmum

ryder72 wrote: »

Farmers are a business and if its not viable to produce milk they should grow something else.

Unfortunately diversifying lead to cruel puppy farms, subsidised by government, in Wales.

leveller2911

pendragon_arther wrote: »

I rather think you're missing the point. Most dairy farmers were born into the job, they know nothing else.

How many thousands of people in this country get to ther 50's each year having done the same job since they left school only to find their jobs are obsolete but they successfully learn other trades,careers.

You really have missed the point most on here are making.

If you knew how the buyers at supermarkets squeeze their producers until the pips squeak then you'd realise how much muscle the supermarkets hold over them.

The farmers ,partly have themselves to blame due to their over supply of the market. If you flood the market with any product then the price will fall and thats down to the farmers, not the customers or the supermarkets. Farmers really don't help themselves and many,many dairy farms are not efficient in the way they run their businesses.

This country has already seen the decline of many industries over the years, I don't want to see yet another one go down the toilet pan.

What you say is true however the UK must now compete in a global market with cheap economies such as China,India etc so we need to be ultra efficient to compete and sadly UK dairy farmers are not.

Simple question: Do you think its right for households earning £32k a year to be subsidising farmers who ,on average are receiving £30k a year in farming subsidies even before they earn any money from their products?.

I agree that not all of the industry is rich and especially the hill farmers should receive some help but the majority of farmers own more in assets than the people who subsidise their businesses.

I come from 4 generations doing the same job as me and I don't receive a single penny in state subsidies (except child benefit) and If I can't make money why shouldn't I get benefits like farmers do?.

snowcat75

leveller2911 wrote: »

How many thousands of people in this country get to ther 50's each year having done the same job since they left school only to find their jobs are obsolete but they successfully learn other trades,careers.

You really have missed the point most on here are making.



The farmers ,partly have themselves to blame due to their over supply of the market. If you flood the market with any product then the price will fall and thats down to the farmers, not the customers or the supermarkets. Farmers really don't help themselves and many,many dairy farms are not efficient in the way they run their businesses.



What you say is true however the UK must now compete in a global market with cheap economies such as China,India etc so we need to be ultra efficient to compete and sadly UK dairy farmers are not.

Simple question: Do you think its right for households earning £32k a year to be subsidising farmers who ,on average are receiving £30k a year in farming subsidies even before they earn any money from their products?.

I agree that not all of the industry is rich and especially the hill farmers should receive some help but the majority of farmers own more in assets than the people who subsidise their businesses.

I come from 4 generations doing the same job as me and I don't receive a single penny in state subsidies (except child benefit) and If I can't make money why shouldn't I get benefits like farmers do?.

Actually uk agriculture is very efficant as a global player despite the fact the UK is not a level playing field. Two major reasons that the dairy industry is suffering so badly at the moment are because of the Chinese economy and the euro both factors that global players have no control over.

subsidys have benefited the consumer for years and have kept the price of food unrealistically low, and have acted as a strangle on the industry itself.

leveller2911

snowcat75 wrote: »

Actually uk agriculture is very efficant as a global player despite the fact the UK is not a level playing field. Two major reasons that the dairy industry is suffering so badly at the moment are because of the Chinese economy and the euro both factors that global players have no control over.

Is farming is the only industry affected by the downturn in the chinese economy, the euro or the sanctions on Russia?..Its rediculous to single out farming as the only industry that suffers in a downturn.At least farmers get a nice big fat cheque each year but engineering companies etc that export get diddly squat.

subsidys have benefited the consumer for years and have kept the price of food unrealistically low, and have acted as a strangle on the industry itself.

I can see some logic in what you say however farmers oversupply the market with their products, fact .

Now as I previously stated any oversupply of a product will reduce the value of the product so they are contributing to their own problems. I would also mention the EU, why is it so many farmers are in favour of the UK staying in the EU unless its just for the subsidies because they are always whinging about not having a level playing field. France subsidises its farmers more than the UK so there will never be a level playing field . If subsidies "strangle the industry" then why are so many farmers in favour of EU membership?.

I've just watched yet another news article about farmers blockading a TESCOS depot and just about every tractor was no more than 3yrs old. To buy machinery,4x4 every few years means the farms are making money because they claim it all back against their tax liability via the AIA (Annual investment allowance) etc. Have profit of £80k and buy a new tractor for £80k and the profit for tax purposes is £0, then shout how bad farming is and how they can't make money and the public fall for it and want the UK farmers to be paid more for their milkbecause they aren't making any profit...... Its laughable and the public are falling for it hook line and sinker.

My point is , to invest in their businesses they have to have made money , you can't invest in a business if it isn't making money.

Many, many ,many farmers show next to no profit each year purely down to clever accounting. I invested £23k this year in a new van, previous one lasted me 15yrs and I needed a replacement but in buying the new van it also lowered my tax liability by £23k. The difference is I don't whinge and moan about how hard it is to stay in business or receive £30k+ (annually) of the publics money + whatever I earn.

As the old saying goes "You never see a farmer on a bike".I don't think we will ever agree ..

snowcat75

leveller2911 wrote: »

snowcat75 wrote: »

Is farming is the only industry affected by the downturn in the chinese economy, the euro or the sanctions on Russia?..Its rediculous to single out farming as the only industry that suffers in a downturn.At least farmers get a nice big fat cheque each year but engineering companies etc that export get diddly squat.

I can see some logic in what you say however farmers oversupply the market with their products, fact .

Now as I previously stated any oversupply of a product will reduce the value of the product so they are contributing to their own problems. I would also mention the EU, why is it so many farmers are in favour of the UK staying in the EU unless its just for the subsidies because they are always whinging about not having a level playing field. France subsidises its farmers more than the UK so there will never be a level playing field . If subsidies "strangle the industry" then why are so many farmers in favour of EU membership?.

I've just watched yet another news article about farmers blockading a TESCOS depot and just about every tractor was no more than 3yrs old. To buy machinery,4x4 every few years means the farms are making money because they claim it all back against their tax liability via the AIA (Annual investment allowance) etc. Have profit of £80k and buy a new tractor for £80k and the profit for tax purposes is £0, then shout how bad farming is and how they can't make money and the public fall for it and want the UK farmers to be paid more for their milkbecause they aren't making any profit...... Its laughable and the public are falling for it hook line and sinker.

My point is , to invest in their businesses they have to have made money , you can't invest in a business if it isn't making money.

Many, many ,many farmers show next to no profit each year purely down to clever accounting. I invested £23k this year in a new van, previous one lasted me 15yrs and I needed a replacement but in buying the new van it also lowered my tax liability by £23k. The difference is I don't whinge and moan about how hard it is to stay in business or receive £30k+ (annually) of the publics money + whatever I earn.

As the old saying goes "You never see a farmer on a bike".I don't think we will ever agree ..

If its that easy and there's Soo much money in farming, then buy yourself some land and live on those big subsidy cheques. (although with 75% of my holding being non eligible The BPS might just get me to next month)


Not ALL farms receive BPS, and as we are big exporters especially of oilseeds and cereals We DO need to remain part of the EU.


And I last got on a bike two days ago, that was when I had my 12 year old 218k Nissan parked on the wrong farm.


Not all business are the same, don't generalise unless you've actually walked in another mans shoes.