ADSL+ Broadband Speeds are unregulated

Retrogamer

[Deleted User] wrote:

Evidence, some testing is required. First you need to find what exchange your ADSL is being served from.
https://www.samknows.com/broadband/broadband_checker
This will give the post code of the exchange. Now find a distance checker something that will measure the road distance from your house to the exchange.

Not all telephone lines follow the road routes so road distance isn't always an accurate way to measure the line length.
ISP's provide estimates on sync speed normally as per Ofcom's best code of practise (which most adhere to) based on the technology they use and the estimated line length which comes from Openreach databases.

You have not presented any evidence BT or Openreach are throttling ADSL sync speeds as you claim.

If they have access to Openreach and don't lease from Wholesale they can work out the line more accurately by doing a small test which measures the line's capacitance. Most of the time this is around the estimated line length but other times the line length estimates are wildy inaccurate.

[Deleted User] wrote:

Next log into your router and look at its statistics page and note down the SNR and downstream line speed figures.

Next find a broadband speed checker.

http://speedtest.btwholesale.com/

Does it agree with what you recorded from your router?

The only way to get consistently accurate throughput speed figures by doing speed tests such as the above is to run speed tests on a wired computer, with all other devices disconnected from the router. Do it in safe mode with networking.

This will measure the throughput speed rate however and has nothing to do with Openreach as Openreach engineers generally don't even know what the word throughput means or how to measure it.

If your sync speed varies a lot from your throughput speed there is either a congestion issue with the speed test site, your ISPs backhaul or you've got some serious packet loss (verified by poor latency and high ping times)

[Deleted User] wrote:

Next using the linked graphs in the first post work out what speed you should have for the SNR and distance from the exchange. Is it lower than it should be?

Only the sync speed is relevant to this. There are lots of factors that can cause poor sync speeds however, even on short lines.

REIN interference.
Poor quality infastructure such as poorly seated tie pairs or corroded crimps, alloy cables, bridge taps etc.

These are usually the cause. For all the broadband faults i investigated and resolved over my career, i've never had any that the reason for slow speeds was Openreach restricting anything in any way.

Nilrem

[Deleted User] wrote:

Evidence, some testing is required. First you need to find what exchange your ADSL is being served from.

https://www.samknows.com/broadband/broadband_checker

This will give the post code of the exchange. Now find a distance checker something that will measure the road distance from your house to the exchange. Next log into your router and look at its statistics page and note down the SNR and downstream line speed figures.

Next find a broadband speed checker.

http://speedtest.btwholesale.com/

Does it agree with what you recorded from your router? Next using the linked graphs in the first post work out what speed you should have for the SNR and distance from the exchange. Is it lower than it should be?

Except that as has been said the route of your line may have no relation to the distance to the nearest exchange.

The phone network has been laid in and built up over 50+ years, with things like new exchanges being built after the houses near them due to demand, meaning you can have an exchange half a mile away, but if your house was built before the exchange you may well be connected to another one 2-5 miles away* (as I don't think BT were in the habit of rerouting masses of phonelines when they built an exchange unless they had to).
More often it might zig zag or take a very indirect route to the house from the exchange depending on where the likes of street boxes and ducting are in relation to the exchange and the customer, and what lines where free when it was provisioned or repaired.

Also the likes of the age of the wiring (IIRC it's varied a bit in diameter, and exact copper content over the years), how many joints it's got in it, if it's corroded anywhere all make a difference.

So at best the likes of the check sites are a rough estimate rather than a real guide.


*I've seen that complaint a number of times from forum users here and elsewhere from people who have lived in such properties.

[Deleted User]

Yes, yes, yes! All the same BS from those who have a financial interest with BT or Openreach directly or indirectly. When BT says boo everybody asks "tell me what to say".

The fact remains that scientifically their is a direct relationship between distance from the exchange and SNR. This gives a benchmark expectation of what the line speed should be. If the speed is lower Openreach must explain why its lower and if the attenuation is being caused by legacy issues they should be obliged to address them to improve the quality of infrastructure.

Back to the evidence. Not everybody can log onto their modem router because some ISP like EE don't supply the customer with this information. So ISP need to provide their customers with the Digital Line Maintenance (DLM) SNR target figure that currently applies to their line. Better still and in addition they should give the customer the benchmark speed that their line is capable of.

If the answer comes back that nobody knows how long the line is between exchange and customer then its a license for Openreach to operate a restrictive practice and to hide behind complexity and excuses.

Openreach needs to be broken up and the first step along that road has been taken by unbundling the local loop. Here people like Sky, TalkTalk and EE have their own people who do the work that Openreach would otherwise do.

Openreach need to explain why unaccounted for attenuation is creating a difference between what speed is possible and what is measured. These line speed tests don't use or rely on customer equipment. A prospective customer without an ISP account uses a postcode to determine what speed can be expected. This customer has no way of knowing the SNR figure for the cabinet they will be served from. The ISP knows and has no obligation to tell the customer what benchmark speed they should expect.

alderpoint

[Deleted User] wrote:

All the same BS from those who have a financial interest with BT or Openreach directly or indirectly.

I have no financial interest with BT or Openreach directly or indirectly, and indeed since they cause the demise of my previous employer I absolutely hate them. However I consult on broadband networks all over the world and thus have a rather wide experience of the reality of DSL networks.

The fact remains that scientifically their is a direct relationship between distance from the exchange and SNR.

The relationship is with line length, not some other measurement of distance (e.g. road length). It also varies according to the size of wire used, whether it's copper or aluminium, how many segments it is (i.e. how many joins) and how well the joints are made.

Not everybody can log onto their modem router because some ISP like EE don't supply the customer with this information.

Then beg/buy/borrow a router which does allow you to access this information.

If the answer comes back that nobody knows how long the line is between exchange and customer then its a license for Openreach to operate a restrictive practice and to hide behind complexity and excuses.

They really do not know. So many lines were installed pre-broadband that the records just do not exist. Doing a full audit and producing complete records is possible in theory but would be horrendously expensive and would you be will to pay for it?

Openreach needs to be broken up and the first step along that road has been taken by unbundling the local loop. Here people like Sky, TalkTalk and EE have their own people who do the work that Openreach would otherwise do.

Yes the local loop is available to companies other than BT, but it is Openreach that look after the wire from you to the exchange. Sky, TT and EE don't work on that, they look after the equipment in the exchange and the backhaul.

If you don't like the service you get via Openreach's access network, you are free to choose another....

Retrogamer

[Deleted User] wrote:

Yes, yes, yes! All the same BS from those who have a financial interest with BT or Openreach directly or indirectly. When BT says boo everybody asks "tell me what to say".

No, not at all. I worked for approx 7 years with various ISPs over a range of different ADSL broadband products and technologies. I no longer work with ADSL broadband or ISPs so i think it's fair to say i have no financial interest in that field. I have an interest in accurate information and facts though. You seem to want to believe what you want to believe, rather than what is correct.

[Deleted User] wrote:

The fact remains that scientifically their is a direct relationship between distance from the exchange and SNR. This gives a benchmark expectation of what the line speed should be. If the speed is lower Openreach must explain why its lower and if the attenuation is being caused by legacy issues they should be obliged to address them to improve the quality of infrastructure.

Openreach generally do explain why the speeds are slow where possible. If your ISP isn't able to forward that information towards you, that's hardly Openreach's fault. If it's on a Wholesale product you're less likely to get a good explanation from engineers work as you're introducing another third party to the conversation. I.e Openreach to Wholesale to ISP.
Under certain circumstances Openreach do have an obligation to address line issues. Hence why engineers are sent out to repair them....
The only time i've seen them refuse to do line repairs to improve the connection quality is when it's not financially viable. I.e let's spend thousands of pounds (sometimes 10's of thousands), dig up several roads, people's gardens with months of work so we can get this customer's speed from 2mbps to 5mbps.

[Deleted User] wrote:

Back to the evidence. Not everybody can log onto their modem router because some ISP like EE don't supply the customer with this information.

People are welcome and able most of the time to purchase their own and connect it.

[Deleted User] wrote:

So ISP need to provide their customers with the Digital Line Maintenance (DLM) SNR target figure that currently applies to their line. Better still and in addition they should give the customer the benchmark speed that their line is capable of.

Most of them will give you them the SNR if you called up and asked and an estimated line speed as part of Offcom's code of practise (as already mentioned) that ISP's need to adhere to.

[Deleted User] wrote:

If the answer comes back that nobody knows how long the line is between exchange and customer then its a license for Openreach to operate a restrictive practice and to hide behind complexity and excuses.

Worthy of a conspiracy theory blog. Evidence first (which you still haven't provided), then belief second.

[Deleted User] wrote:

Openreach need to explain why unaccounted for attenuation is creating a difference between what speed is possible and what is measured. These line speed tests don't use or rely on customer equipment. A prospective customer without an ISP account uses a postcode to determine what speed can be expected. This customer has no way of knowing the SNR figure for the cabinet they will be served from. The ISP knows and has no obligation to tell the customer what benchmark speed they should expect.

Perhaps the next time you read my response you should both absorb the information and also check what i've said so you know it's correct.

My posts about regarding throughput and sync speed differences, how it's measured, how throughput is nothing to do with Openreach and how ISP's have to adhere to Ofcom's regulations about providing estimated speeds is all explained in detail which you can check and verify yourself.

kwikbreaks

I'm amazed this is still running.

The OP has zero evidence for his conspiracy theory (mostly because there is none as it is pure BS) yet requires all nay-sayers to offer proof.

[Deleted User]

kwikbreaks wrote: »

...The OP has zero evidence for his conspiracy theory (mostly because there is none as it is pure BS) yet requires all nay-sayers to offer proof.

It’s the volume of proof that matters.

A salutary tale: a guy I know who lives out in the wilds of Cumbria was a customer of BT Broadband. He was always complaining about the low speed of his internet connection which varied between 500kbps and 1Mbps plus constant dropouts. Openreach would come out and find nothing.

So he changed to EE. Immediately his speed rose to around 4Mbps with no drop outs he was well pleased. When asked why, he said the EE guy had gone to the cabinet and there was a restriction that he removed and that was why things had improved.

Well I'm not convinced it happened that way. By going with EE he swapped from a 20CN product to a LLU 21CN product. A technology restriction had been removed.

If you have a low download speed then a good site to visit is that of ISP ICUK (I'm not a customer or affiliate of theirs). They openly sell 20CN, 21CN FFTC and Annex M products. Clicking the LLU 21CN buy button is quite revealing.

It asks you for your telephone number and then does a line speed check. A list of packages is there to choose from. The interesting bit is that if you have a line speed of say 1.5 Mbps and you live 2.5km from the exchange then the improved ADSL technology will not deliver you an improved speed. The speed is entirely dependent on the copper running from the exchange to your road cabinet. For the guy in Cumbria he was buying a 20CN ADSL Max product and changed it for a 21CN ADSL2+ product.

All I hear from the experts here is a defense of the status quo. No attempt or incentives to persuade Openreach to improve things. MSE subscribers are looking for a good price or failing that better value for the money they are paying. All they see is falling ADSL download speeds and line rentals going up.

Why is BT Wholesale not selling 21CN as an upgrade to 20CN?

iniltous

Which EE guy went to the cabinet and removed something.??..EE don't employ anyone who 'goes into the cabinet' , the only people in 'cabinets' are Openreach people or contractors working for OR, and EE do not have a single employee that does this,
If your assertion were true that they deliberately add attenuation to lines to make them 'under perform' then why is there any variance at all , wouldn't they add more attenuation to short lines, may be arrange so everyone got a similar (low) speed ,so no one got anywhere near the theoretical maximum of the technology, for their individual length of line ?, and if they only 'tinker' , say reduce a line capable of say 15Mb down to say 12Mb do you think this would have any affect on demand, when people on lines say delivering 6Mb would probably jump at the chance of 12Mb, and 15, 12 or 6, they all pay the same..if the idea is to persuade people to go to fibre, wouldn't they just put up the price of regular broadband
Every single copper pair OR 'rent' should meet or exceed SIN 349, and if they do then what's the problem, if they don't meet this standard the 'renter' can always report it as sub standard, or are service providers in on this, even those that don't sell fibre ?
I think as far as conspiracy theory's go, it's not got legs, I'm not sure any budding investigative journalists are going to be picking up on this

[Deleted User]

iniltous wrote: »

Which EE guy went to the cabinet and removed something.??..EE don't employ anyone who 'goes into the cabinet' , the only people in 'cabinets' are Openreach people or contractors working for OR, and EE do not have a single employee that does this...Every single copper pair OR 'rent' should meet or exceed SIN 349, and if they do then what's the problem

Well that's how I heard it. I simply don't know what the EE guy did that's why I was dubious. Its more than likely he was boosting EE at BT's expense.

As far SIN 349 goes for a home/soho user this is voodoo. Its not down to such customers to challenge SIN 349 compliance because Openreach if they decide to do a copper test will charge the hell out of the them. No, SIN 349 is strictly voodoo and out of bounds for home users. Businesses, well that's another story as they have deep pockets and can take Openreach to court on disputes.

What gets me is the nature of the broadband speed test itself. This downloads a file and sends one back whilst measuring the time taken to do this. How is the software to know whether the user has a 20CN or 21CN or Annex M product because it makes heck of a difference to the outcome. Just how do these tests work?

littleboo

[Deleted User] wrote:

Well that's how I heard it. I simply don't know what the EE guy did that's why I was dubious. Its more than likely he was boosting EE at BT's expense.

The "EE guy" didn't do anything in the cab, and he certainly wasn't "boosting EE at BT's expense" Why do you post such nonsense if you think it's not true ?

[Deleted User] wrote:

As far SIN 349 goes for a home/soho user this is voodoo. Its not down to such customers to challenge SIN 349 compliance because Openreach if they decide to do a copper test will charge the hell out of the them. No, SIN 349 is strictly voodoo and out of bounds for home users. Businesses, well that's another story as they have deep pockets and can take Openreach to court on disputes.

There's no voodoo. Any disputes about compliance to SIN would between the ISP and Openreach as its the ISP that is Openreach's customer not the end user.

[Deleted User] wrote:

What gets me is the nature of the broadband speed test itself. This downloads a file and sends one back whilst measuring the time taken to do this. How is the software to know whether the user has a 20CN or 21CN or Annex M product because it makes heck of a difference to the outcome. Just how do these tests work?

What would the speed tester software need to know what broadband product is being used ?