Can my wife claim?

MissMoneypenny

xylophone wrote: »

A lot of typing time has been expended on arguing about whether or not the OP's wife is entitled to free NHS care - I notice that the OP did not specifically query this and indeed, since his wife has been here since last year and is six months pregnant, presumably he knows the answer?

Perhaps he'll come back and tell us.....:)

I assume that was because he thought his Dutch wife could use the NHS for free and could have UK benefits? Many think that because 'the NHS if free' they think it is free for everyone, but all foreign nationals have to ensure that they don't take what they are not allowed. Only some EU citizens can now have UK benefits. Only some EU citizens can now have their medical bills paid for by the UK.

Unfortunately, it is often UKVI (UK visas and immigration) who finds out they have taken something they shouldn't or remained in the UK when they had no right to be in the UK. Although some EU citizens are reporting that they are getting letters from HMRC telling them they have no right to reside in the UK.

It's quite simple for EU citizens with who can have what from the UK.

An EU national can only visit for 3 months and as visitors, they cannot use that countries health service for free. After that we have to be, and remain, a qualified person to use our treaty rights of free movement in another EEA country. EU citizens can be removed and banned for 1 year if they don't have a right to reside.

If they find work and earn enough to pay NICs, they can use the NHS for free and reside in the UK while they remain a worker qualified person.

EU citizens who don't have a right to reside in the UK, or self sufficient or students are not allowed to take free NHS. Self sufficient and students have a right to reside in the UK but must have Comprehensive Sickness Insurance to pay the NHS and cannot have public funds from the UK.

The only exception to this is the Irish, who have a separate reciprocal agreement with the UK and don't have to use EU treaty rights in the UK. Only the Irish are given free use of the NHS as soon as they reside even if they don't work; nor do they have be a Qualified Person to reside in the UK past 3 months.

Rules for foreign nationals using UK immigration laws for the NHS and benefits, are different.

FBaby

MissMoneypenny, it would be helpful if you could comment on the NHS guidance and where it says that someone like OP's wife is not entitled.

MissMoneypenny

sleepless_saver wrote: »

There follows a long discussion on what is meant by "ordinarily resident" and a link to a decision making tool. A non EEA citizen without indefinite leave to remain would never be considered ordinarily resident, but the OP's wife probably would - paras 3.7 on.

It is a myth that EU citizens can just move to another EEA country.

Prove your right to live in the UK as an EU citizen

You need a registration certificate if you’re an extended family member of an EEA national.You don’t need a registration certificate if you:

• are a ‘qualified person’, ie you’re working, studying, self-employed, self-sufficient or looking for work

https://www.gov.uk/eea-registration-certificate

And before anyone asks, a Brit is not an EU citizen in their own country, just as aGerman citizen isn't an EU citizen in their own country etc under EU laws.

On the multi millions of sites about free movement, they make it clear that an EU passport only gives us 3 months in another EEA country. There are strict rules to follow to stay in another EEA country past 3 months. To remain in another EEA country they must be a qualified person under treaty rights of either,
a worker,
self sufficient,
student
jobseeker (just for a limited time now in the UK)
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/existing-eea-migrants-at-risk-of-destitution-following-the-removal-of-housing-benefit/

As you can see, there is no "married to a citizen of that country, qualified person' to remain past 3 months.



Our EU passport does not mean that another EEA country must provide us with free heatlhcare when we turn up. As in other EEU countries, the UK now only provides free healthcare if they contribute to the UK with national inusrance each week. The last of the NHS for free (for the family members of an EU citizen student) ended last month.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/431618/comprehensive_sickness_insurance_for_family_members_of_students.pdf


And with this, the UK is now contribution based for free NHS, just as most other EEA countries already have been.

"From today (9 March 2015), new EU migrants who have arrived in the UK will be prevented from claiming benefits until they have started work.

Action has already been taken to halve the amount of time EU jobseekers can claim Jobseeker’s Allowance, Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit and means that if they don’t have a job after 3 months they will lose their right to reside in the UK."

and

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/existing-eea-migrants-at-risk-of-destitution-following-the-removal-of-housing-benefit/


It's up to everyone to make sure they don't take something they are not allowed/or do something that we are not allowed. If we took something from a supermarket and then said "I thought it was free" do we really think they would let us keep that item? It's no different to those who use another countries healthcare for free when we should have told them that we need to pay: but the fact it is in another country, this can then affect our being able to remain in that country.

There are millions of hits on google searches for EU citizens and the need for some to have CSIs.


http://www.immigrationbarrister.co.uk/Blog/eu-nationals-and-family/eu-free-movement-the-nhs-and-comprehensive-sickness-insurance.html

MissMoneypenny

Answering you on the points you asked (that I have seen) in one post.

FBaby wrote: »

AND NO, IT REALLY ISN'T ABOUT ME! - so any clarity is what I am after.

What I said was

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

Two different things. The UK has changed a lot since you moved to the UK under EU free movement laws.

You obviously are basing this on your own experience if you think that an EU passport all it takes to get the UK to give free NHS now. As I have repeatedly said on this thread, that all changed from 2010: when the voters got rid of that government.

FBaby wrote: »

You are clearly well qualified, whatever your professional role,

I have a good knowledge of how to use this powerful tool called the World Wide Web which makes it easy to search the mass of information on the internet and which Sir Tim Berners-Lee was kind enough to give the word for free.

This is a good guide from the Open University for others reading who would like to learn how to do this.
http://www.open.ac.uk/safari/

After that thread on here about UC and the SE, someone posted on there about EU citizens who were SE, that from April they had to register with HMRC and earn enough to pay NICs. That's when I searched the www on why that was and most of the stuff was there for EU citizens in the UK. It's common sense that foreign nationals must keep up to date with immigration change/amendments that country makes to EEA regulations, in the country they want to live in and hope to be a citizen of.

The rest is either well publicised or seems to be fitting together like a jigsaw puzzle, so not a surprise when stricter rules come in for all the foreign nationals that haven't come to the UK to do a UK shortages job. i.e. already news of more immigration changes in the Autumn now the UK has a newly created Immigration Taskforce.

FBaby wrote: »

MissMoneypenny, it would be helpful if you could comment on the NHS guidance and where it says that someone like OP's wife is not entitled.

Why are you using the NHS site to look for information for EU citizens in the UK? That would be the last place I would look as we are talking about UK laws for EU citizens.

Another reason I would not use the NHS site for information is because the NHS level of incompetence it legendary across the world, which is why so many found they could target the UK for free helath care. And it's also why the UK government have just had to bring laws under the Immigration Act 2014 (easy to find on the internet) that will mean that from April 2015 the NHS staff who are bad at their jobs will now get their NHS trust fined if they give their NHS budget away to people who must pay.

Under that same law, the UK will now reward the who have staff who are good at their job and make sure they bill, by giving their NHS trust extra money (add a percentage to the bill of the person who has to pay, collect the money from another EEA country now).

They have also just given the NHS the means to catch the EU citizens who must pay, instead of having to rely on the EU citizen to be honest. If the NHS miss those who should pay, UKVI won't. It's a very big risk to take now.


With all that in place to catch those who seek to abuse the NHS, now use one of the millions of other sites FBaby to find the ever changing rules for EU citizens in the UK .
If a British citizen arrived in your EU country, didn't contribute but asked for free healthcare paid by your country, would they give it? Then why the surprise that the UK is now operating like this too? What you have said is not correct.

The OPs wife needs to ensure that she pays the NHS and if she is claiming she is a self sufficent qualified person to have a right to reside in the UK past 3 months, then she also needs to buy a CSI or make sure her own EU country will pay all of her NHS care via their EHIC. The UK won't do that via the UK EHIC for UK citizens living in another country: the UK EHIC doesn't even cover everything for those visiting other EEA countries.

FBaby

Why are you using the NHS site to look for information for EU citizens in the UK? That would be the last place I would look as we are talking about UK laws for EU citizens.

No, we moved on to NHS entitlement if you are an EEA national, so I would think that a recent policy from the Department of Health entitled 'Guidance on implementing the overseas visitor hospital charging
regulations 2015' giving that exact advice relating to entitlement is as relevant as it gets (which by the way can be found on the Gov.uk website, not some random NHS one!).

You are free to stick to your advice and believing you know better. I was open to a discussion about the above policy which is what NHS hospitals will follow, but clearly you are not willing to do that.

I suppose the best advice would be for any readers of this thread to trust what the policies they can find the official DoH website and the advice provided by organisations such as maternity action rather than random posters on a forum.

MissMoneypenny

FBaby wrote: »

You are free to stick to your advice and believing you know better. I was open to a discussion about the above policy which is what NHS hospitals will follow, but clearly you are not willing to do that.

What part of my previous posts in this thread (with their links about laws for EU citizens in the UK) don't you understand?

I even explained why it was not a good idea for foreign nationals to look at the NHS site as they are in the UK under either UK immigration rules or the UKs version of the EU rules and it is up to them to ensure they don't take something they are not allowed.

FBaby wrote: »

I suppose the best advice would be for any readers of this thread to trust what the policies they can find the official DoH website and the advice provided by organisations such as maternity action rather than random posters on a forum.

Did you read the links to the gov.uk site that I gave? One saying about an EU citizen qualified person having a right to reside in the UK and listing what those qualified person were: and the other about self suffcients and student qualified persons in the UK needing to have a CSI (Comprehensive Sickness Policy)?

FBaby

What part of my previous posts in this thread (with their links about laws for EU citizens in the UK) don't you understand?

I even explained why it was not a good idea for foreign nationals to look at the NHS site as they are in the UK under either UK immigration rules or the UKs version of the EU rules and it is up to them to ensure they don't take something they are not allowed.

You really are not very pleasant are you!

I get what you are saying about immigration law and qualified persons in the UK, what I am questioning is why the DoH guidance is not referring to it and seem to be giving different advice in regards to assessing entitlement to the NHS. What I was hoping you would do is look at the guidance and comment on it. I very much doubt that an EEA who has been assessed as entitled to NHS treatment by their local hospital is going to challenge them and give them a lecture on how they are wrong from an immigration perspective and should be charged!

You are clearly not interested in looking at the guidance though, so I have nothing else to discuss on this thread.

sheramber

Since the OP's wife has been resident here since 2014 any new regulatins will not apply to her until/unless she has to renew her visa.

As the OP has not indicated what type of visa his wife has then information in this thread may or may not be totally irrelevant.

I would suggest the OP gets be ebtter advised getting help from someone who can relate to the exact position rather than speculation on what may or what may not apply.

MissMoneypenny

I don't know how you havent heard about this before, the press in the UK and many other countries picked this up in 2013 and it has been a common topic on forums since, but the changes for EU citizens started in 2010 when self sufficients and their dependants and students then needed a CSI to be a qualified person in the UK.

Some accept it as having had a good run and they can see why the UK has started checking for the abusers and why they are also stopping from being so generous with their NHS, while others seem to go through the Kubler-Ross model of loss, known by the acromym DABDA which is quite normal behaviour.

Denial

FBaby wrote: »

You are free to stick to your advice and believing you know better.

Anger

FBaby wrote: »

You really are not very pleasant are you!

Bargaining

FBaby wrote: »

I very much doubt that an EEA who has been assessed as entitled to NHS treatment by their local hospital is going to challenge them and give them a lecture on how they are wrong from an immigration perspective and should be charged!

Depression

Acceptance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model


If the hopspital want to give free NHS and use their own budget when they should bill the person or their own country via their EHIC, then that is their choice but they will be fined for doing that. Whereas those that correctly bill, don't lose that money from their NHS budget and can often get more money if they can add 25% or 50% to their NHS bill as allowed from 6 April 2015 under the Immigration Act 2014.

For applications from 6 April 2015 for the non EU citizens on a UK visa of more than 6 months, most pay £200 a year in advance for the duration of their visa for their Immigration Health Surcharge. They rest all need to buy their own health insurance. The former present their Biometric Residence Pemit when they use the NHS (contains their biometric details such as fingerprints and information such as whether they can have free NHS) which means they won't be billed by the NHS.

The relevant NHS trust then claims the money back from the government who are holding all this IHS money in one pot, when an IHS is presented for payment. This will mean the NHS trust will not have to use their own budget to pay for that persons treatment. Again, it's the NHS choice if they want to claim that money back or lose it from their own NHS budget. If they give the treatment away for free when they should have billed, then they get fined.

This has all been in the papers for years.

ispookie666

About time the rules were fixed for EEA people.
It had become NHS of EEA
Unless OP makes it clear if he has updated his wife's status with the UKVI/HO and she has right to remain we all can only speculate.