Benefits, self-emplyment, "gainful employment" and "minimum income floor"?

Naf

Icequeen99 wrote: »

Yes that is the UC criteria. Outside of the start-up period, self-employed claimants will need to earn hours x NMW as profit. The rules are slightly different for couples as it depends on what the other person is earning.

All employed jobs meet it - they have to pay NMW (aside from apprenticeships and similar things)

IQ

On the surface, yes; the employer has to actually give you at least NMW, but they don't really stack up the same when you look at it; as self employed, transport costs can be written off within the business before considering profits, but as an employee transport costs have to come out of that minimum wage; as self employed there's often no necessity to pay childcare costs (obviously you can, but its much more feasible to work around your childcare needs), but in employment its almost certain that you will. So that NMW you get paid is eroded by little bits & pieces quite quickly, so its not really fair to demand that a business pays "the same" when the two don't compare side-by-side like that. Just my opinion, but that minimum ought to be NMW minus what would be reasonable transport costs to get to/from a job, and minus 30% of expected childcare costs (based on number of children. 30% because TC pay 70%).

shegirl

Naf wrote: »

Hmmmm, I hadn't thought about actual timesheets. I figured they know people can (and very probably do) just make them up, so wouldn't bother with them. Receipts etc. are a given; I've got a tracker spreadsheet, and nothing goes on it without the receipt going in the folder.




We're trying. All the pictures are accompanied by text; we're trying different things, products, offers etc.




The prices she's offering, even if she's making something on them, are cheaper than we've found just now. She buys in bulk quantities that we just can't manage or justify right now, so I imagine that has something to do with it. But obviously we're not expecting referrals :rotfl:




Other than just Googling, how can we find suppliers?




Yes, we recently learned that some of our prices were poorly calculated. Made a cake that took about 5 hours for £3 profit. Oops :T. Got another spreadsheet for that one too.

To be honest, Google may well be your best friend when it comes to suppliers and don't just stick to the first page or two,no matter how tempting or more reliable it may seem to go for the top hits. If I had done that when searching out suppliers for my custom packaging I wouldn't have found what I really wanted.

It may also be worth checking if there are any good cake makers/decoraters forums or boards on crafting and small business forums and finding any recommendations there too.

As for the hours,yeah anyone could fake them I guess but they are often requested with other things,although you are right and even then with some things it could be faked or exaggerated. But tax credits have rules regarding for different family situations and the hours needing to be worked,along with the 30 hour bonus,so hours will be questioned

HarryDentJr

Mersey wrote: »

The new rules came in for the self-employed in 2015/16.

So they will not apply to her if she started eg in March 2015. New businesses also have a period of grace/transition before the minimum rules kick in.
.

Is that correct, that if you started before April 2015, then the new rules don't apply yet? When will they start to apply?

missbiggles1

Naf wrote: »

On the surface, yes; the employer has to actually give you at least NMW, but they don't really stack up the same when you look at it; as self employed, transport costs can be written off within the business before considering profits, but as an employee transport costs have to come out of that minimum wage; as self employed there's often no necessity to pay childcare costs (obviously you can, but its much more feasible to work around your childcare needs), but in employment its almost certain that you will. So that NMW you get paid is eroded by little bits & pieces quite quickly, so its not really fair to demand that a business pays "the same" when the two don't compare side-by-side like that. Just my opinion, but that minimum ought to be NMW minus what would be reasonable transport costs to get to/from a job, and minus 30% of expected childcare costs (based on number of children. 30% because TC pay 70%).

I don't really see that you can argue that you should get some kind of allowance for things you don't use - it doesn't make sense.

Naf

missbiggles1 wrote: »

I don't really see that you can argue that you should get some kind of allowance for things you don't use - it doesn't make sense.

You clearly haven't understood. I'm comparing the amount of useable income that the two provide you with, and suggesting that they ought to be equal, which they aren't.
In employment you must be paid at least NMW, but at least £1 of that (per child) will go on childcare, and then there's transport and potentially uniform costs to pay as well (sure they're small, but they're still there)- all of which have to come out of that NMW you receive from your employer.
As self-employed, there's much less requirement for childcare, and all transport and uniform costs are business expenses so they come out before that NMW you're expected to make.
So as self-employed the system demands more of you than if you went & found a job: and that seems unfair.

missbiggles1

Naf wrote: »

You clearly haven't understood. I'm comparing the amount of useable income that the two provide you with, and suggesting that they ought to be equal, which they aren't.
In employment you must be paid at least NMW, but at least £1 of that (per child) will go on childcare, and then there's transport and potentially uniform costs to pay as well (sure they're small, but they're still there)- all of which have to come out of that NMW you receive from your employer.
As self-employed, there's much less requirement for childcare, and all transport and uniform costs are business expenses so they come out before that NMW you're expected to make.
So as self-employed the system demands more of you than if you went & found a job: and that seems unfair.

I haven't misunderstood but you seem to think that what people earn has some relationship to what they have to pay out. Quite apart from that, by no means all employees have childcare costs and many (genuinely) self employed people do.

Up to now, the state has asked very little (in the way of proof) from self employed people so it seems reasonable now that they should prove, by their income, that their self employment is genuine.

FBaby

You clearly haven't understood. I'm comparing the amount of useable income that the two provide you with, and suggesting that they ought to be equal, which they aren't.
In employment you must be paid at least NMW, but at least £1 of that (per child) will go on childcare, and then there's transport and potentially uniform costs to pay as well (sure they're small, but they're still there)- all of which have to come out of that NMW you receive from your employer.
As self-employed, there's much less requirement for childcare, and all transport and uniform costs are business expenses so they come out before that NMW you're expected to make.
So as self-employed the system demands more of you than if you went & found a job: and that seems unfair.

Except that you are only looking at your own circumstances. Not all employed and getting NMW need to pay childcare. Some work separate shift, some have their own parents to help etc... Similarly, I personally find it amazing that someone can run a successful business whilst being an attentive parent to three children. Indeed, the vast majority of self-employed who have chosen that route as a mean to support themselves rather than claim benefits will themselves use childcare.

FBaby

posted at the same time than missbiggles

shegirl

Naf wrote: »

You clearly haven't understood. I'm comparing the amount of useable income that the two provide you with, and suggesting that they ought to be equal, which they aren't.
In employment you must be paid at least NMW, but at least £1 of that (per child) will go on childcare, and then there's transport and potentially uniform costs to pay as well (sure they're small, but they're still there)- all of which have to come out of that NMW you receive from your employer.
As self-employed, there's much less requirement for childcare, and all transport and uniform costs are business expenses so they come out before that NMW you're expected to make.
So as self-employed the system demands more of you than if you went & found a job: and that seems unfair.

Whether transport can be deducted as expenses varies actually, for example, travelling to your place of work from home and back (self employed) is not included. It's not as cut and dry as you suggest.


If you want to run a business properly you need space away from the kids. Whether that's working while they are at school, at stupid o' clock in the morning (both for me!) or putting them in childcare. You have to work to work it around them and make it fit with your whole life. I can't imagine many people who do it properly sit working while their kids are sat bashing saucepans in the next room..

missbiggles1

shegirl wrote: »

Whether transport can be deducted as expenses varies actually, for example, travelling to your place of work from home and back (self employed) is not included. It's not as cut and dry as you suggest.


If you want to run a business properly you need space away from the kids. Whether that's working while they are at school, at stupid o' clock in the morning (both for me!) or putting them in childcare. You have to work to work it around them and make it fit with your whole life. I can't imagine many people who do it properly sit working while their kids are sat bashing saucepans in the next room..

Particularly if you're baking cakes for commercial sale with three young children wanting to help!