Benefits, self-emplyment, "gainful employment" and "minimum income floor"?

dktreesea

FBaby wrote: »

You mean well worth for the lazy person who wants their benefits without having to justify what they are doing to come of it.

They may not be lazy; they might just be not that good at what they are doing. But yes, I do think the current system promotes laziness, for both the self employed and unemployed. And the attitude of the government, to dump people on disability allowance without providing them the help they need, especially for people with mental illness, to get off it, makes "getting disability" an aim of both camps, i.e. the self employed and the unemployed who are reliant on benefits to keep them afloat.

FBaby wrote: »

Why blame the government? Anyone not aiming to play the system would themselves acknowledge that they can't sustain their business because they can't access capital to do so! As I've said before, many people have great potential for becoming successful business people, but don't take that route because of the risk of the initial investment or just because they can't access it. Self-employment just isn't for everyone, and that includes those who can't raise the necessary capital, if required.

I agree with you. There are plenty of reluctant self employed people - take a look at the raft of contractors in the IT field - who have uncertain incomes and would love to get a permanent job but can't because no one is hiring. But at the same time there is a group of people who are encouraged into self employment, often by the DWP, some going willingly, some not wanting to but tired of the DWP's harassment.


We incentivise DWP staff to get people "into employment" and self employment counts for their targets.

shegirl

dktreesea wrote: »

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean you need to have £50k to set up a jewellery design business. I meant that it's much easier to set up that kind of business if you have some money behind you.


I think too there's a difference between setting up a business with £100 if you are in a position where you have savings and/or other people are willing to support you.


My son's friend is all of 16, makes videos for youtube and has done for three or four years. He works from his bedroom, started off with a camcorder he got for his 13th birthday, and is already making around £100 a month. He's probably never going to be on the dole or need universal credit to support him.


Jewellery makers who rely on craft shows and the like to sell their wares are in a different kind of business to yourself. They have to pay for and make their stock before they go to the show. The lady I was talking about did get commissions from time to time, but not all jewellery makers are professionally trained, went to art school, have spent time working for established jewellers etc.


I agree with you about the price of gemstones. Garnets are a good case in point. Anything from USD$7.50 a carat to USD$2,500 a carat on the site my neighbour showed me.


To me though, you are looking at this from a completely professional standpoint. Presumably you are formally trained and design jewellery as your profession?


Try looking at it instead from a point of view of being unemployed, being sick of going for jobs you know you are never going to get, and being constantly hassled by DWP jobsworths. Self employment and WTC are escape routes. Maybe a person looking at this used to string up beads and make costume jewellery back in their youth, which could be 20 or 30 years ago. They do a bit of research on the internet, find someone who can sell them cheap findings, and they're away. Maybe along the way they do a silver smithing course.

Um. I went from unemployed due to caring responsibilities, single mum to business owning single mum. I didn't have people or capital behind me. Nor am I trained. I learnt to silversmith by reading one book, buying some tools and diving in at the deep end.

Jewellery makers who ONLY do craft shows are either hobbyists or are at EVERY craft show they can get to, all over the country often too. No business only operates by going to a craft fair once a month!!!!!

I can get you a one carat garnet for £3 or less btw. Not $7.50 plus shipping and possibly customs.

I could've set my business up on much less too, silver is very cheap to buy.

The point is, she isn't running a business at all. You don't need loads of money to set up a jewellery business either.

She has a hobby that she claims is 'work' so she can get working tax credits. That won't last. On no planet will anyone think spending, what 20 hours a week, making jewellery to attempt to sell it once a month and making £200 worth of sales at most once a month, is a proper business or viable. For tax purposes yes, but she won't even pay any of that.

If she wanted to make jewellery as a business she would operate as one. She could've started with a few pieces, put them online, marketed and marketed, with the pieces down as 'made to order' and capital wouldn't have been a problem.

Instead, she is clearly wasting money on making things day in day out and attempting to sell once a month. So, clearly, money wasn't an issue in the first place was it?

dktreesea

It's not money from a business that's the issue. It's benefits. People are being forced off the unemployment rolls into self employment every day, by DWP staff who are incentivised to get people out of unemployment. People who agree to this are people who haven't been able to get a job and are terrified of being sanctioned/made homeless/made destitute.


You don't need loads of money to set up any business. And for tax credits the definition of being gainfully employed is to be working with the expectation of making a profit.


Even if all someone makes in profits is £1,000 a year, this is better than a significant number of small businesses. Across all self employed people, the median profit is only just over £10k a year. Not even the FT NMW.


So now these people, who are ill equipped to build a business, are suddenly, come the minimum income floor, going to find themselves in some cases as much as £15k a year down on their benefits. We're not talking about a few people. More like hundreds of thousands of families will be affected. Possibly even millions. After all, there are 5 million self employed people, and over half of those have less profits than the FT NMW.