A question about keeping children off school in term time: to take them on holiday.

coolcait

mumps wrote: »

My husband was a police officer, he couldn't always get his holidays in the school summer holiday. Do you really want police, fire service, NHS etc to let staff numbers fall below safe levels or should essential workers with school age children not be allowed to have family holidays. Obviously not all will have children but often the people on the front line are of an age where it is likely they will have children, then you have the police officer, fireman, nurse, doctor who doesn't have children but is married to a teacher. We had to take holidays in termtime some years or not have a family holiday. Nothing to do with wanting a cheap holiday, wanting to go abroad or anything else other than a man who was working hard, risking his life/health for the public (ultimately injured in the course of duty and disabled for over 20 years) and wanting two weeks away for it all with his family. My kids all went to university, all got firsts and all doing well so it wasn't the ruin of their education.

I'm the child of someone who worked in one of those careers. A vital, but not terribly well-paid job.


My parent "got away from it all" simply by being on leave. We spent time together as a family without having to '"go away on holiday". We (the children) certainly didn't get taken out of school.


Not only did we (the children and the family) survive this, we thrived.


We had endless free days out at museums, parks, gardens and the odd castle. Plus the occasional visit to places where you had to pay a bit of money to get in. I still remember many of the things that I found out during those visits.


We mastered the quintessential British survival technique of being able to picnic anywhere, anytime, in any kind of weather.


On the days that we stayed at home, we played cards, board games, and listened to both parents tell stories of their childhood, their families, life, the universe and everything (which included history, geography, current affairs etc), and we told them our own stories.


Families don't need to go away on holiday to have those experiences. Some families who go away on holiday don't actually spend very much time together or talking to each other.


As an aside, it does seem that the Scottish posters are less likely to have encountered a culture of 'term-time holidays'. I'm not even sure that Scottish law has the equivalent of the law which has been quoted on both of the current threads about this issue.

Spendless

onlyroz wrote: »

Wouldn't that come under "exceptional circumstances"?

peachyprice wrote: »

Yes, it would.

No, not necessarily. Each LA has defined what they class as 'exceptional circumstances' differently. There has been no Government guidelines. West Yorkshire police raised this as a concern last year.

http://www.wypf.polfed.org/2014/07/17/federation-speaks-out-on-officers-taking-term-time-holidays/

There's a sticky at the top of this board that links in to various areas and what their policy is, ie what constitutes exceptional circumstances in that area

My own LA has defined restrictions on employment as exceptional, but doesn't have attending a wedding abroad as a reason, though I know other areas do.

Jagraf

mumps wrote: »

So would it have less impact on the child's education if it was exceptional circumstances rather than any other reason? I don't think so.

Exceptional circumstances narrows the effect absence had on the rest of the class, as there will be less absence generally. Rather like in the workplace. I'm wondering why those who have jobs which are serving the community cannot see the wider perspective of community education and how one persons actions can affect another.

There is more than just one child in a classroom.

FBaby

I'm still not clear how a child missing class impacts on the others. Is that because of time taken away from the teacher when they need to help the pupil catch up when they are back? But surely that's not something the teacher has to do, and in the meantime, the smaller the classroom, the more attention individual kids get?

I personally think that if a parent is going to take the responsibility to take their kids away, it also becomes their responsibility to help them catch up on what they've missed, not the teacher.

onlyroz

FBaby wrote: »

I personally think that if a parent is going to take the responsibility to take their kids away, it also becomes their responsibility to help them catch up on what they've missed, not the teacher.

How can they catch up on what they've missed without asking the teacher what was covered when they were away? The teacher then has to either take time away from the rest of the class or give up their own time to fish out missed worksheets, root out text-books, and re-explain any difficult concepts. And then that child will require extra time and assistance to get to grips with whatever is being studied when they get back from their holiday because they missed coverage of the more basic concepts.

Lunar_Eclipse

fierystormcloud wrote: »

I WILL keep them off in school time to go on hols if I want. I will probably even lie and say they're ill.

Why lie? You believe in your right to take children away in term time (nothing wrong with that), so why hide it with a cowardly lie? Just pay the fines and avoid teaching your children it's acceptable to lie and shirk consequences of our actions.

Also, there is a big difference between being 'relaxed' about holidays in term time, and 'encouraging' it which I think you said in your opening post. (And yes, I have removed both my children for holidays without issue.)

You must read/watch different news to me. Standards have most definitely not slipped and regardless, they are way ahead of when I was at school in the 70's & 80's. I have two teenagers; they are significantly more advanced than I was in so many areas. Their attitude to learning, presentation skills and academic achievement is years ahead of what I recall from my school days. My 13 year old writes essays that make my A level ones look mediocre. Clearly this won't apply to all children, but what does?

You said you don't have children, so with respect, you have no personal experience of education today. My experience, albeit limited to 4 schools, is that standards in those schools are outstanding.

I think I probably agree with a lot of your general sentiments, but most of that is lost in your mocking of other posters. Because many on here have *personal experience* which differs significantly from what you've *heard in the news*, it is reasonable for people to ask where you've heard that and for you to answer without basically saying 'you're delusional if you don't know this is how it is', showing zero credibility.

mumps

onlyroz wrote: »

How can they catch up on what they've missed without asking the teacher what was covered when they were away? The teacher then has to either take time away from the rest of the class or give up their own time to fish out missed worksheets, root out text-books, and re-explain any difficult concepts. And then that child will require extra time and assistance to get to grips with whatever is being studied when they get back from their holiday because they missed coverage of the more basic concepts.

With my kids they would borrow books from friends to copy up what had been done and friends would collect an extra worksheet for them. It was no problem for the class or the teacher and their friends had minimal effort which would obviously be repaid. It was the same if they were off sick.

Lunar_Eclipse

onlyroz wrote: »

How can they catch up on what they've missed without asking the teacher what was covered when they were away?.

At primary school age they go over the same material several times so in effect, don't have to "catch up."

At secondary school age the onus is clearly on the child. One of my children missed a day of school last week (for an Athletics competition with the school) and she has to cover the work that was missed - by asking her friends. An example of this was her frantically doing homework on DNA over breakfast today having been absent for when it was set (& hence it wasn't on radar until fairly last minute!) My two have only missed secondary school due to illness or school related activities, but I have never known a teacher to be involved in their catch up. And if they don't catch up, well they don't catch up!

mumps

Jagraf wrote: »

Exceptional circumstances narrows the effect absence had on the rest of the class, as there will be less absence generally. Rather like in the workplace. I'm wondering why those who have jobs which are serving the community cannot see the wider perspective of community education and how one persons actions can affect another.

There is more than just one child in a classroom.

The school that two of mine went to was a grammar school close to a big teaching hospital. You would be amazed how many kids had parents who were working in medical fields, doctors, nurses, physios, radiographers are just some I can remember. They my one son was in a class with three other boys who had fathers who were police officers on the same division as my husband. Quite alot could claim exceptional circumstances, alot went on holiday in school time. Didn't seem to cause teachers any extra work, the only thing the school took a dim view of was absences near exam time.

You might be amazed about people not seeing how one persons actions can affect others, I am amazed that it would be OK for me to be unable to have a family holiday for 34 years. Funny that.

mumps

Lunar_Eclipse wrote: »

At primary school age they go over the same material several times so in effect, don't have to "catch up."

At secondary school age the onus is clearly on the child. One of my children missed a day of school last week (for an Athletics competition with the school) and she has to cover the work that was missed - by asking her friends. I know this caus she was frantically doing homework on DNA over breakfast having been absent for when it was set. My two have only missed secondary school due to illness or school related activities, but I have never known a teacher to be involved in their catch up. And if they don't catch up, well they don't catch up!

Still works just like it did when mine were at school then.