A question about keeping children off school in term time: to take them on holiday.

mumps

We always did holidays in school holidays if we could but it wasn't always possible. I also understand that some people can only afford a holiday in term time and I do think holidays are important. Not the end of the world to miss them one year but very sad in this day and age if a child grows up never having a holiday.

No one has explained to me why it is OK for kids who are in the Olympics or other sporting events can miss school. I would love to know why that is OK.

My DD missed far more school due to medical issues than she ever did due to holidays and catching up was treated exactly the same for both. She got all As in 6 A levels. I wonder what she would have done if we had never had a holiday and she had better health? Then again she missed 4 years because she didn't start school till year 4 and that didn't hurt her either.

onlyroz

mumps wrote: »

No one has explained to me why it is OK for kids who are in the Olympics or other sporting events can miss school. I would love to know why that is OK.

Some interesting information here:

https://schoolleaders.thekeysupport.com/pupils-and-parents/absence-and-attendance/authorising-absence/absence-from-school-modelling-assignment

Essentially, if a child experiences long periods of absence to participate in sporting or entertainment work then private tutors should be provided.

Absence for children working in entertainment



The National Network for Children in Employment and Entertainment (NNCEE) says that a child performance licence must be obtained in order for a child of compulsory school age to take part in:

• Theatre, when a charge is made
• Modelling or sport, when the child or any other person is paid a ‘wage’ (rather than where there is an admission charge)
• A performance in licensed premises

It says that local authorities (LAs):

... would generally require a child to be licensed if absence from school is required for any performance.

LAs would generally require a child to be licensed if absence from school is required for any performance


The licensing regulations differ for:

• Broadcast performances: films, TV, video
• Non-broadcast performances: theatre, modelling, sport (activities)

Entertainment: introduction, NNCEE


http://www.nncee.org.uk/legislation-employment-a-entertainment/entertainment/detailed-entertainment
On the same page, the NNCEE says that for performances, the licence applicant is the person or corporation responsible for the production in which the child is to take part. For sport or modelling, the licence applicant is the person or corporation organising the sporting event or planning to engage the child as a model


Furthermore, there are four types of licences. Two of these are for when a child is taking time off school. They are:

• Standard licences: required for performances that run on specific days within a specific production company
• Open licences: similar to standard licences, but run for a set number of days, rather than specific days, over a six-month period. They only apply to TV programmes and films

Role of LAs

The NNCEE page also says that LAs:

... have a great deal of discretion within this legislation as they have a duty to 'check out' any areas of concern in order to confirm that the performance will not have a detrimental effect on the child in question.

You may wish to check with your LA for further information about arrangements in your area.

How long can a child be absent for broadcast performances?

The NNCEE's table for children in entertainment broadcast performances sets out how many hours per school day a child can spend in entertainment broadcasting performances.


The hours are listed by the following age groups:

• Ages 0-4: not applicable
• Ages 5 to 8: three hours per school day
• Ages 9 and over: three hours per school day

Children in entertainment broadcast performance table, NNCEE (Adobe pdf file)


http://www.nncee.org.uk/attachments/article/21/broadcast-performance-table-2.pdf
The specific hours of work allowed for 13- to 16-year olds differs. This information can be found near the bottom of NNCEE's 'legislation' webpage:
Summary of the legislation covering compulsory school age children, NNCEE


http://www.nncee.org.uk/legislation-employment-a-entertainment

How long can a child be absent for sporting activities?

No national maximum days of absence for sporting activities

An NNCEE spokesperson explained that there is no national maximum number of days that a child can be absent from school for sporting work. This applies whether or not the young person or a person on his/her behalf is being paid for this activity.
The spokesperson added that if the school believes too much leave is being requested, some form of private tuition should be put in place by the event organiser.
Contact us, NNCEE
http://www.nncee.org.uk/contacts/nncee-enquiries
Schools should check LA policy before authorising absence for sporting activities

Schools should check the policy of the LA before agreeing to authorise an absence for sporting activities as LAs may require a licence to be issued before a child can take part.
Plymouth City Council, for instance, explains that a licence is required for all paid sporting activity regardless of the activity's duration, and also for all unpaid sporting activity that lasts five days or more.
Southampton City Council requires licences for children involved in paid sporting activity. They are not required for pupils taking part in an unpaid sporting activity, regardless of duration and of whether it involves absence.
Performance and stage licence, Plymouth City Council
http://www.plymouth.gov.uk/licensingfacility?id%3D67633
Juvenile employment: children in entertainment, Southampton City Council, see pages 6 and 7 (Adobe pdf file)
http://www.southampton.gov.uk/policies/Guidance-for-producers.pdf
The NNCEE has also produced a table summarising rules for children participating in non-broadcast activities (which includes paid sporting activities). It explains that if a pupil is attending school both for the morning and afternoon sessions, then he/she must only take part in one performance (or sporting event) or one rehearsal per day.
Children in entertainment: non-broadcast performance table, NNCEE (Adobe pdf file)


http://www.nncee.org.uk/attachments/article/112/non-broadcast-performance-tabl.pdf
LA guidance on children working in entertainment or sport

Surrey County Council

Absence may not be given to enable any pupil to undertake employment except in accordance with a licence
Surrey County Council's guidance on children working in entertainment says:

Under the provision of Regulation 11 of the Education (Schools and Further Education) Regulations 1981, absence may not be given to enable any pupil to undertake employment except in accordance with a licence.

The law contains no provisions under which absence may be authorised for an unlicensed performance.

The council says that before granting a licence, it will liaise with the headteacher of the child’s school to ensure that the child’s education will not suffer should the licence be granted. It adds:

For long engagements there should be a private tutor, although regulations do not stipulate how many days absence from school will be permitted before the LA will insist on this.

It is the responsibility of the licence applicant to state their proposals for the child’s education at the outset and it is the LA who then decides whether or not the arrangements are satisfactory.

Children in entertainment: performing on stage, television, film, commercials, Surrey County Council, see page 5 (Adobe pdf file)
http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/170288/Children-in-Entertainment-2009.pdf
Hampshire County Council

According to Hampshire County Council, permission for absence may be granted by the headteacher for a licensed performance only. This should be recorded on the school register as ‘authorised absence’.
The headteacher cannot give permission for absence outside the period for which the licence is valid.
To view this information on the Hampshire website, please click on the tab marked ‘Summary of the regulations’ under the heading ‘Absence from school’.
A guide to children in entertainment, Hampshire County Council


http://www3.hants.gov.uk/childrens-services/childrenandyoungpeople/child-employment/children-in-entertainment-guide.htm
Open licences for modelling

Some councils also provide ‘open licences’, also called ‘modelling licences’. These licences are valid for six months and allow the child to undertake modelling assignments in quick succession.
Birmingham City Council provides open licences, but West Berkshire Council does not.

FBaby

ViolaLass wrote: »

The senior leadership of their school may not be impressed at the teacher not doing all they can to help that child catch up. And there is the spectre of performance-related pay.

Then if it is expected by the Senior Leadership it is part of their duty and they should get on with it whether they agree with it or not.

ViolaLass

FBaby wrote: »

Then if it is expected by the Senior Leadership it is part of their duty and they should get on with it whether they agree with it or not.

And then we're back to the point made earlier than kids being off causes extra work for teachers.

(My post was in response to you suggesting that teachers should focus on those children 'who don't break the rules' by going on term-time holidays.)

Jagraf

FBaby wrote: »

Surely just asking what topic was covered that week is only going to require a quick response only.



That's my point, they don't have to do that. More and more schools are only nowadays to. My kids have all their assignments and details of lessons on their on-line account. Even at primary school, they could access everything online. Everything that needs futher explanation can be done by parents, or if it is beyond their knowledge, it is there choice to pay for extra tutoring.

I don't understand why teachers who feel strongly that these children are disruptive to the rest of the class as a result of their parent's choice would actually go ahead and act in a way that tells these parents that indeed, they can take their kids out of school without consequences as the teachers will pick up the slack.

In teams of 5 list the positive and negative impact on building a recycling plant. Please choose a scribe and a team leader and discuss who will present to the rest of the class. Write up your experiences with regards to this team exercise.

The above could be just part of one lesson a child takes part in. This lesson can be cross referenced over many curriculum areas.

Have you ever seen a lesson plan, scheme of work, assessment criteria, differentiation, learning objectives etc which Supports each and every minute of a classroom day. It might be bonkers but that's how it is at present. When ofsted visit, they have access to all of these records. It is really like taking minutes and each child has to be accounted for.

Do you think a teacher just stands at the front of a class reeling off facts? There is actually very little, almost none existent, time for that. In fct, because of different learning styles teachers have to assess learning and the way a child learn best. Thre is a lot of interacting with other children, building on previous lessons, group work, practicals (science - not sure how many parents have the materials necessary for chemistry).

But if a parent takes a child on holiday because its cheap, and them hires a tutor, more fool them. Something literally doesn't add up.

coolcait

mumps wrote: »

Maybe you didn't need to get away to relax, some people do. For example if you are a police officer, linvolved in quite high profile investigations, you can regularly run into some of your "customers" which doesn't make for a relaxing day out at the local park,

Do you think it is reasonable that because one of your parents chose a certain career you would be unable to have holidays? I don't understand how you had all these days out if your parents couldn't have leave during your school holidays. Did you only go out at weekends?

Ah yes - the 'customers'! My parent had more than one story to tell about bumping into 'customers' when off-duty. In latter years, my OH has been in a similar situation.


I was immensely proud of the contribution my parent made to society as a member of the emergency services. Even if society didn't see fit to provide remuneration at a level which made family holidays feasible - on the occasions when the timing would have worked out.


If people see 'spending time together as a family' or 'relaxing away from work' as being completely and exclusively synonymous with 'going away (abroad) for a week or two', then they won't understand how or why things worked for my family.


If you have a parent who works shifts and/or is restricted in the times they can take leave, then you, as a family, very quickly learn to make the most of the opportunities that you have.


Someone who works shifts isn't always free at weekends. So, make the most of the weekends which are free. On the other hand, they regularly have days free in the middle of the week. If those days coincide with school holidays, bingo.


Coming off night shift, there was usually a run of several days before the next shift pattern started. Again, plenty of scope for getting out and doing stuff together. Or days on early shift - in the Scottish summer, on days when the weather is good, you can get a good few hours outside after the shift ends. You pretty much get the beach to yourself, the water seems warmer in the evening, and if you have a barbecue disaster, there's no one nearby to get annoyed by the billowing smoke or screams of laughter.


There are plenty of opportunities for fun days out, and holidays, in the UK. And it doesn't always rain. Just as it isn't always sunny in overseas resorts.

Nicki

I'm completely confused why if someone works in a profession where lots of people have school aged children and can't guarantee getting time off in school holidays every year, that this translates into not being allowed a holiday for 34 years!

Surely if you miss out on all 13 possible weeks in 2010, you would have a decent chance of getting at least one week in 2011 or 2012. It's really hard to imagine that the same person would NEVER be allowed to take time off during school holidays over the whole of their working life. Though if that is the case, I can't see how any school could say that wasn't an exceptional circumstance because it clearly is very odd indeed

Jagraf

mumps wrote: »

We always did holidays in school holidays if we could but it wasn't always possible. I also understand that some people can only afford a holiday in term time and I do think holidays are important. Not the end of the world to miss them one year but very sad in this day and age if a child grows up never having a holiday.

No one has explained to me why it is OK for kids who are in the Olympics or other sporting events can miss school. I would love to know why that is OK.

My DD missed far more school due to medical issues than she ever did due to holidays and catching up was treated exactly the same for both. She got all As in 6 A levels. I wonder what she would have done if we had never had a holiday and she had better health? Then again she missed 4 years because she didn't start school till year 4 and that didn't hurt her either.

Did she do 6 A levels at school? :eek: that's a lot!

mumps

onlyroz wrote: »

Some interesting information here:

https://schoolleaders.thekeysupport.com/pupils-and-parents/absence-and-attendance/authorising-absence/absence-from-school-modelling-assignment

Essentially, if a child experiences long periods of absence to participate in sporting or entertainment work then private tutors should be provided.

Thanks, that is interesting. So if a child is away for a few weeks leading up to and including a major event, say the Olympics, then they have a tutor with them. OK for little ones but would have to be a pretty talented tutor to copy with GCSEs in say MFL, maths, sciences, RE, etc etc etc. Also lack of labs for science. Seems quite disruptive to me.

mumps

Nicki wrote: »

I'm completely confused why if someone works in a profession where lots of people have school aged children and can't guarantee getting time off in school holidays every year, that this translates into not being allowed a holiday for 34 years!

Surely if you miss out on all 13 possible weeks in 2010, you would have a decent chance of getting at least one week in 2011 or 2012. It's really hard to imagine that the same person would NEVER be allowed to take time off during school holidays over the whole of their working life. Though if that is the case, I can't see how any school could say that wasn't an exceptional circumstance because it clearly is very odd indeed

It would work if they stayed in the same place. If you have someone who is looking to reach senior rank, as my DH did, then they will move round departments/divisions to get experience, then they will move when promoted. Sometimes when they get to higher ranks they will even move force. So the new division/department/force doesn't really care what happened last year. We had periods of several years in a row where it just didn't work out for us so we took holidays in term time.

Just to add about the 13 weeks, we liked to go camping so the October and February half terms didn't appeal. Christmas and New Year weren't great either. Easter depends as sometimes can be good but not terribly reliable so you are left with May half term and six weeks in the summer. I suppose if we had wanted to go abroad we would have had more flexibility but not our choice of holiday.