ESA and Aspergers

Savvybuyer

ArtoDeeto wrote: »

I am sure I will find myself corrected but I didn't think having Aspergers meant you could never be able to work? I thought you could work but might need some extra support? ;;;;; I guess my understanding of Aspergers Syndrome needs a total rethink

I worked full time for over 15 years, the vast majority of that time without even knowing I had Asperger's!

So, yes, Asperger's certainly does not mean someone can't work. It depends what - some jobs may be more suitable for people with Asperger's and others might not be so suitable. But I wouldn't rule anything out - it affects different people differently.

Sometimes we might need extra support with certain things - but, then again, so might anyone on anything. Often the level of support needed isn't unduly arduous. I needed minimal support in my work (indeed I'd often sit there, just getting on with it whilst 'everyone else' chatted!) - indeed, for many years, I got no extra support at all since no-one knew I had Asperger's or, if they did, it didn't matter - to my work - which was often of excellent and near 100% perfect quality - I didn't really need any support and got on perfectly fine without any for many years - okay I was not great at switching immediately from one task to a completely different one, but I could do it and could switch even if it wasn't the great best thing for me.

It depends though, as some people with it have sensory issues and can't therefore work well, say, in a room with fluorescent lighting. Others - being "socially awkward" isn't always a disability. The fact you don't have a social life after work much - how does that affect your ability to do your work at work? There may be little faux pas (plural as more than one occasion) and misunderstandings occasionally and you won't be doing small talk* at lunchtime with anyone, and therefore always seem an 'odd peg', never really establishing social connections for use elsewhere, but the quality of your technical work may be excellent.

The only area I ever got marked less in during all my period at work was "communications". (By which, they meant, at times, I was a bit aloof and oral communication - sometimes I didn't do it as much as maybe I should. I didn't go sending inappropriate emails or anything.) Everything else was excellent. Turns out I have a communications disorder, so that I am perfect in every way:rotfl:!

*Actually people call it "small talk", but me, in my Asperger's independence of thought, as usual, disagrees. It's not "small" at all, but is, in fact, to the vast majority of people (i.e. neurotypicals) a significant and highly functional part of their lives and, therefore, very great indeed. It therefore plays a large role in most people's lives and isn't therefore "small" at all. :doh:I think the term "small talk" is a turn of phrase and not meant to be taken literally:rotfl: (notice - I notice the literal, but then I see the non-literal as well! So I actually see more than most people, who see one interpretation and then just know it is correct. Meanwhile, I see lots of possible interpretations and then can't decide which, if any, of them is the right or 'most valid' one or not. Hence the struggle to make a decision as to what I should do).

rogerblack

Savvybuyer wrote: »

"personalised help so that you can work if you’re able to."
.

This is akin to trying to learn physics from observing road-runner cartoons.
It is a cartoon description at best.

What this actually means is something like:
For those that fail to meet any of the support group descriptors, but do qualify on the unable to work descriptors you will be required to go to one or more work-focussed interviews.

At these interviews, (which may if they choose be carried out by telephone) - someone with no information about your case, and minimal training about your condition will in 15 minutes or so attempt to suggest things that may make you more likely to be able to work.

They may choose to require you to do various things that in their opinion will help you. You can ask that they reconsider, but if they will not you have no other rights other than to appeal any sanction if you fail.

They may refer you on to a work program provider, who may have similarly poorly trained staff, who in many cases may confuse JSA and ESA requirements. (JSA claimants can be forced to apply for work).

In principle - if everyone you meet understands your condition, and there are useful things they can refer you to, and they believe your condition really exists, and they are not looking to find someone to sanction that day because they have a target - it can work well.

Savvybuyer

rogerblack wrote: »

This is akin to trying to learn physics from observing road-runner cartoons.
It is a cartoon description at best.

What this actually means is something like:
For those that fail to meet any of the support group descriptors, but do qualify on the unable to work descriptors you will be required to go to one or more work-focussed interviews.

At these interviews, (which may if they choose be carried out by telephone) - someone with no information about your case, and minimal training about your condition will in 15 minutes or so attempt to suggest things that may make you more likely to be able to work.

They may choose to require you to do various things that in their opinion will help you. You can ask that they reconsider, but if they will not you have no other rights other than to appeal any sanction if you fail.

They may refer you on to a work program provider, who may have similarly poorly trained staff, who in many cases may confuse JSA and ESA requirements. (JSA claimants can be forced to apply for work).

In principle - if everyone you meet understands your condition, and there are useful things they can refer you to, and they believe your condition really exists, and they are not looking to find someone to sanction that day because they have a target - it can work well.

Thanks for setting all this out.

"This is akin to trying to learn physics from observing road-runner cartoons.
It is a cartoon description at best."

:rotfl::rotfl:

Although - I laugh, but it's not funny really is it:o? As it is a serious matter that affect people's lives.

"In principle - if everyone you meet understands your condition, and there are useful things they can refer you to, and they believe your condition really exists, and they are not looking to find someone to sanction that day because they have a target - it can work well."

:rotfl:So not quite a cynic there at all.

You're right though - at least to some extent. Thanks for divorcing the theory from the reality and :doh:I forgot that the phrase on the DWP's website was not really intended to convey any useful information but, like anything ever written on any organisation's website, is merely public relations on behalf of the organisation that posted it.

Savvybuyer

fishybusiness wrote: »

Get hold of a copy of your Aspie assessment - you will have to go back to the mental health team that assessed you.

If you apply for ESA, and I think you should, part of your evidence is the assessment and you will be able to send a copy with your application.

Any application you make should describe how you find life difficult. For example, if timekeeping is difficult explain it, could be that you lose track of time and forget to go to appointments on time, or couldn't get to work on time. Other things like safety - some aspie's struggle with spacial awareness, and bump in to things a lot, you would explain that on the application.

My partner was diagnosed last year and we have been through this 'lark' for the last 4 years or so on and off, she is now in the ESA support group.

Perhaps ESA/ PIP will give you some breathing space to work out what jobs you might be able to do rather than being pushed in to a corner by JSA.

Are you sure you have an Asperger's diagnosis - the guidance manual for diagnosis - DSM 5, removed Aspergers, and extended the Autism spectrum, and Aspergers is now an Autistic Spectrum Disorder.

DSM5 is the American version and does not apply to this country. In the UK, they may well still diagnosis with Asperger's although my understanding is that it was being phased out. For all practical purposes, it doesn't matter whether it's Asperger's or autistic spectrum disorder - as the focus is on how a condition affects someone not in what the condition is called. However, I've lost some of my pedantic nature over the years (due to my being 'moulded by society' into realising that often it lost my friends and did not help me gain social successfulness) but that last part of your post would have done me proud! I mean that it is almost as bad as I am - in splitting hairs between "autism" (or should that be "Autism"?), "autistic spectrum disorder" and "Asperger's".

I mean that, in the past, years ago, I would have strictly maintained specific definitions of each term and would have used them in the strict technical sense but, nowadays, with my slight loss of pedantic nature, I use them pretty much interchangeably and no longer worry about which it should technically be.

However, to be pedantic - I don't think they "extended" the spectrum. Autism, in the wider sense, already previously meant "autism, including Asperger's syndrome" as Asperger's syndrome is a form of autism. So the spectrum remains the same. It's just that the term "Asperger's" may (and I say "may") not be used to call it as "Asperger's" anymore - instead it is folded into "autism spectrum disorder", where it always lay anyway.

Except that I think it is useful to maintain the distinction, if only because people have got used to "Asperger's" and now it's changing again (not that I am averse to change there - where a change is pre-announced, as this has well been, then I can often adapt to it no problem).

I am Asperger's. That's what my clinician told me (although they then went and wrote "autism spectrum disorder":rotfl:).

Asperger's has always been an autism spectrum disorder. "Autism" may mean "classic autism" i.e. does *not* include Asperger's. Or it may mean "autism" - i.e. "autism, including Asperger's syndrome" (as a form of "autism").

I understand that there are various levels of "autism spectrum disorder", depending on how much support a person is considered to need. Or - for example - it may be "autism spectrum disorder without intellectual disability" to refer, perhaps, to Asperger's (or what previously was).

On the point about timekeeping - specifically, losing track of, or forgetting to go to, appointments - my perception is that it's not so much people with Asperger's that would be likely to do these things but, instead, people with forms of mental illness - it's more likely to be if you are in severe depression, for example, you might forget appointments or need prompting to go to them. Asperger's is not a mental illness - it's a neurological development disorder. Myself, as regards forgetting about appointments, I would be (from my Asperger's as opposed to from depression) extremely unlikely to forget times of appointments as those are things that I remember vividly and probably more so than the average person. I would catalogue and remember information. As regards losing track of time, I have radio-controlled clocks and work by precise, accurate time. That's my pedantic - I thought 'there is only one time' (in a place when it is set to UTC(GMT)/BST as applicable) and could not countenance my watch being out by one second as it is then incorrect and inaccurate. Indeed, some of us, if a teacher said "I'll start the lecture at 11 o'clock" would be taking that literally and, on the stroke of 11:00:00, when the teacher is still wrapping up something else, would be "tick, tick... it's 11am! You said you would start it then, why are you now not doing so?!?" Teacher thinks we are interrupting - we are just 'trying to be helpful'(!) by reminding them of what they said they would do and the time at which they would do it. After all, that's the "correct" thing isn't it?!?(:rotfl:)

Or I would arrive for parties at the exact time they actually said, rather than, like everyone, arriving about ten minutes late.

Anyway, I have perhaps "lost track of time" by now, as it is nearly 1.30 in the morning!:eek: But that's not lack of awareness; that's just getting immersed in something (and perhaps putting normal life-type activities off) and, regarding appointments, I'd know they were set.

However... it may be more difficult to get to appointments, or have problems with timekeeping, because of the amount of time it takes to get ready. That may have something to do with depression, rather than Asperger's, and depression is often found in us as people with Asperger's are more at risk. However, as an Asperger's thing, it may be something to do with fine motor skills (or lack of) that make it more long-winded, but in very very subtle ways, to carry out each task of getting ready. I may drop something on the floor as I lost grip of it. I spend more time then picking it up. Now I forgot I have to go back to the bathroom to clean my teeth. Then I have to go back downstairs. But then, as I've already said, Asperger's affects people who have it differently, so maybe some people with Asperger's do have problems with keeping appointments. That problem may arise from different reasons for different people.

You can imagine people with OCD, rather than Asperger's, might well have problems in things such as getting ready for appointments, due to time spent checking and rechecking that things have been done right - e.g. need to clean the taps 20 times before they leave - depending on what their obsessive behaviour is.

I'm not so sure that things such as safety came into the claim form I did, although this was for PIP not ESA. It wasn't so much the spatial awareness, or clumsiness, sometimes I move through the air... and keep going... but more the daily living tasks, such as cooking, cleaning, communication etc.

I did live with Asperger's for several decades without specifically knowing it. I sometimes felt that I was doing something more exhausting for me that other people seemed to have little trouble doing (even though I still managed to achieve it). Now I realise that, perhaps I really was (and really am) having to make extra effort (in some areas). I knew none of this stuff such as deficits in "executive functioning" before. That's basically difficulty starting tasks, procrastinating over some everyday-type living tasks (which everyone does, I suspect, to some extent at some times but there's that and there's different severities and degrees) - I have learned a lot more about Asperger's (than I ever knew before) since my own diagnosis. And it's interesting as well, in a way (at least it is to me:o:rotfl:).

Jarr_2

Aspergers doesn't stop me working. I want to work. Please don't turn this into a debate I came asking for help because the work program won't help and are making things difficult when I already find it difficult in the first place. Mental health issues might not affect everyone but they are painfully disruptive for those who have problems and don't want them.

@Savvy - Can I PM you about this instead? I don't think this thread is a good idea.

rogerblack

Jarr wrote: »

Aspergers doesn't stop me working. I want to work. Please don't turn this into a debate I came asking for help because the work program won't help and are making things difficult when I already find it difficult in the first place. Mental health issues might not affect everyone but they are painfully disruptive for those who have problems and don't want them.

@Savvy - Can I PM you about this instead? I don't think this thread is a good idea.

The work program - as all employers - are required to make reasonable adjustments for your condition.
If specific actions by them could be taken that do not impact on the likelyhood of you getting work - or improve it, but reduce the problems you have with the work program due to your condition - they may be required to make those adjustments.

Savvybuyer

rogerblack wrote: »

The work program - as all employers - are required to make reasonable adjustments for your condition.
If specific actions by them could be taken that do not impact on the likelyhood of you getting work - or improve it, but reduce the problems you have with the work program due to your condition - they may be required to make those adjustments.

In theory, that's correct.
The problem is the practice. I've long since been directed to looking at how things work in practice rather than looking at theory as I was told I paid too much attention to that - over the decades, it's ended up with society having discouraged me away from concentrating on the theoretical situation and my previous naivety of believing that, because something was written down as a written rule or law, that that was how things actually operated. I went to a solicitor once, under a free thirty minute interview they were promoting, believing that I'd found a technical law that no-one ever complied with, under which I could sue for potentially millions of pounds. I was then confronted with the reality of the situation that suing for that amount would require a substantial financial outlay at the outset and, of course, there was no guarantee I would win. They said that, surely if the law was the way I said, someone else would have taken a case if it was that easy to claim a substantial sum. You need to look at whether there is any case law under the (obscure) statute they said. I said there was none. They said have you checked? I said yes. They didn't believe me. They got their law book out and checked - there were no cases, I was right:D! They also told me that, look at all that shelving, many many many laws, all written down, which people regularly do not comply and none of which matters unless anyone invokes the laws, prosecutes or takes a case. Saying that work programs or employers are required to make reasonable adjustments may, theoretically, be true according to the legal position but that's one thing and the practice of enforcing it is entirely another. I suspect anyone at front line in the work program would misunderstand the Asperger's person yet again if asked to make reasonable adjustments. Call my cynical, but I've learnt that lots of things are wastes of time invoking (maybe I am wrong about this) and that front line staff, all of fairly junior grade, will not know about reasonable adjustments laws - as those are detailed technical things.

The only people that will know are the management (who are concerned about matters that are legal obligations of the organisation as a whole - general staff will not know that and management don't work on the front line and have contact with the public) - front line staff will not know, unless, like me, I was a frontline member of staff in some other organisation and, as a person with Asperger's, of course I knew the entire policies, including 'high policy' areas like this, of the organisation I worked for - but then I would, as these are detailed, 'boring' areas of no interest to most regular staff that are the sorts of areas in which Aspies may develop special interests and study them in detail. It's one of those things - where they circulate a policy around at induction, but no-one (other than the person with Asperger's) pays much attention, is interested in getting their lunch part way through the session and the whole thing gets put into a draw and immediately forgotten and never retained in the memory or remembered at any point in the future.

In short, equality law is a "high policy" area and you need to be speaking to the top management, the person in actual ultimate charge at the very top of the jobcentre, as most 'ordinary' staff will be totally unaware of the requirements.

Meanwhile, if you already work for an employer - I'm talking non-civil service as civil service is probably very good at complying with legal requirements as regards its own employees - but, outside, in the wider world - you work for an employer and find you have a disability. Employer is, theoretically, required to make 'reasonable adjustments' but how can you enforce that when you are in a job and are the weaker party who, lawfully or not, may get dismissed? Is it easy to complain or to bring legal proceedings against your own employer? Employers are required to make reasonable adjustments, but, enforcing that in practice may be very difficult. (That's my take, anyway:cool:.)