Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

Exiled_Tyke

So is it fair to conclude: 

1. The comparison graphic, whilst having some 'holes', assumptions and limitations is a fair illustration of the issue of using H2 for domestic heating. (And there are some assumptions that work the other way (ok in a very small way: using PV for ASHPs in the shoulder months negating grid wastage (ASHPs would certainly encourage me to expand my PV array))) 
2. Even though a gas infrastructure exists conversion to H2 is simply not viable. 
2. There could well be a place for H2 in the UK's energy supply as it does provide a storage/smoothing from volatile RE sources. 
3. If H2 is to be incorporated in the energy supply model then it is imperative that the distinction between dirty H2 and green H2 is clearly identified, reinforced, continually stressed etc...  ? 

zeupater

Martyn1981 said:

Hi Z. I think you're describing something like the Ceres Power fuel cell boiler, which I mentioned many years ago. It can run on methane, through a combination of methane/H2, right through to full H2. It produces leccy at about 50% efficiency, with about another 30% 'waste' as heat. The thought that occured to me back when I posted it, was that the leccy could be used to run a heat pump.

So it would work as a great compliment to PV, especially if you have a battery too, producing leccy in the colder periods, when there's less PV.

Not sure how much it has progressed, I've struggled to find much more info, but if the idea is sound, then it or something like it, may be a way to help transition.

Ceres Power | Fully Charged

A British company making a world beating product, fuel cells. Cheap abundant materials, existing manufacturing technology, disruptive technology coming into the energy market. Pure genius.

Hi

Yep, that's the one ...remember following progress & posting on that many times for well over a decade ... probably still the FF industry holding this back as predicted years ago .... don't forget, it was BG that picked this one up and helped 'champion' it, so it's probably no wonder that very few are aware of it's potential !! ....  

HTH - Z

zeupater

Exiled_Tyke said:

So is it fair to conclude: 

1. The comparison graphic, whilst having some 'holes', assumptions and limitations is a fair illustration of the issue of using H2 for domestic heating. (And there are some assumptions that work the other way (ok in a very small way: using PV for ASHPs in the shoulder months negating grid wastage (ASHPs would certainly encourage me to expand my PV array))) 
2. Even though a gas infrastructure exists conversion to H2 is simply not viable. 
2. There could well be a place for H2 in the UK's energy supply as it does provide a storage/smoothing from volatile RE sources. 
3. If H2 is to be incorporated in the energy supply model then it is imperative that the distinction between dirty H2 and green H2 is clearly identified, reinforced, continually stressed etc...  ? 

Hi

Pretty much agree .... it's not as if you could purge the gas mains tomorrow and start distributing hydrogen even if all appliances were H2 ready ... much of the existing infrastructure would need to be checked, upgraded, re-lined or simply replaced before anything happens at scale on a national basis ... the timelines would be huge and the cost would be far-far greater than simply reinforcing the electricity grid & offloading some modular battery systems where necessary.

Hydrogen for storage/backup power solutions is feasible on both small & large scales ... basically all you need is some electricity, a bowl of water, a couple of wires & an upturned jar and you're effectively there - scale it up and have something to burn/convert the energy and you're there .. energy stored & power made .... however, it's the distribution and who pays for the distribution that becomes the crux of the matter ...

Think about Toyota's hydrogen car, the Mirai ... great concept for the vehicle, but a totally dumb solution to everyday transport at scale. Would we be thinking differently if Toyota had realised that the key required infrastructure didn't exist and there was an opportunity to fill the void through investment? ... probably, but that's someone else's issue - they simply build cars. Tesla on the other hand realised from the beginning that they were Betamax entering into a VHS world and would need to drive change as opposed to waiting on someone else .... different approaches .... different outcomes .... even though Shell tried to help-out Toyota through building/operating a (very!) limited number of (problematic!) H2 stations, the required level of investment wasn't there for the consumer's needs, so Mirai sales stalled, Shell failed to meet their goals & pulled out! ... meanwhile Toyota (and now others) continue to place faith in hydrogen, as long as they don't have to pick up the distribution tab .... meanwhile, others are taking advantage of their indecisiveness & eating their lunch!

HTH - Z

Coastalwatch

Thanks all. Not sure where that leaves us in relation as to which is most cost effective, although my preference would certainly be along the simpler and less hazardous route of avoiding H2 altogether.

On the Heatpump side then having gone down the road of A2A version for space heating, the purchase and installation costs are but a fraction of those for it's water based cousin currently being promoted by one and all. While they would not suit every property they have worked extremely well for us so I see no reason why it shouldn't for a proportion of the existing housing stock. 

Admittedly heating of DHW has to be addressed which we achieve via PV for 8 months and then the cheaper overnight rate for the remaining 4. Whereas we had to install a thermal store for this, any property with an immersion tank already in place would avoid the additional expense.

Unfortunately A2A are considered air conditioners in isolation to their heating potential and for sure we use them as such during hot summer months but from our experience for every 1kWh used for cooling then 10 are required for heating during winter. 

Martyn1981

Just a few random thoughts on recent comments:

For the A2A solution, you can now add a HPWH (heat pump water heater) for the DHW. So a more efficient way to get a tank of hot water, be it PV, or night time economy leccy. Can't for the life of me fathom the air con negativity towards A2A units. If the additional load for cooling is the problem, then offer grants subject to having, or installing PV. Probably overcumbersome, but for those without suitable PV properties, an investment in some kind of Gov PV farm bond could be required. [Just random thoughts, not a well thought out idea.]

I too think H2 for storage (larger scale /longer term) may be a great solution, looks like it will go head to head with CAES (compressed air energy storage) for storage locations. What would be ideal, is if existing FF powerstation(s) are close to a large underground storage facility, then the existing grid infrastructure could be used.

For transport, H2 is already a busted flush. We've seen trials for buses and trains in Germany ended early, as the cost is too high v's BEV's (or electrifying lines). Denmark is now closing its H2 fueling stations - there are over 100 H2 cars, but most are taxi's part of the trial. Private cars sales reached their peak of 10 with a sale in early 2022.

Been reading up / reminding myself about H2 pipelines in the UK. I see that science papers were studying this in 2013. It seems viable, but as Z says, much of the current infrastructure would need to be upgraded or replaced. Seems the high strength steel at the start (where pressures and volumes are greatest) can't cope due to embrittlement, so would need to be replaced with softer(?) steel, and the mains with plastic, though much of it is already.

Although a long (long) way off, I can't help thinking that removing an entire supply line (gas mains) seems like a positive. Certainly for new build areas, where they may no longer be needed at all.

Exiled_Tyke

I'm guessing A2A is not supported as government fears people would get grants for systems installed purely for air con purposes and may not even bother to get rid of their GCH. 

Interesting reattach on H2 Martyn. Thanks.  I think I mentioned previously having talked to someone in the field. His view was that H2 may be great for commercial shipping but not for most other forms of transport.  (Although I've noticed for the first time that Hyundai are actively marketing their H2 cars. I can't find a price though and will be interested to see if they sell any).  

I'd put my money on shipping and FF replacement for electricity power stations (given your comments above) and pretty much nothing else.

Martyn1981

Exiled_Tyke said:

I'm guessing A2A is not supported as government fears people would get grants for systems installed purely for air con purposes and may not even bother to get rid of their GCH. 

Interesting reattach on H2 Martyn. Thanks.  I think I mentioned previously having talked to someone in the field. His view was that H2 may be great for commercial shipping but not for most other forms of transport.  (Although I've noticed for the first time that Hyundai are actively marketing their H2 cars. I can't find a price though and will be interested to see if they sell any).  

I'd put my money on shipping and FF replacement for electricity power stations (given your comments above) and pretty much nothing else.

Funny you should mention Hyundai, as an early HFCV now out of warranty, faces(faced) a €100k+ repair* bill for the fuel cell, when the car stopped working. It seems that the low sales, and the high cost of the technology at the moment, make it difficult to get production up to levels, that might (might?) bring down the cost of the components. BMW also keep talking up HFCV's, but they seem somewhat confused, bouncing between BEV's, e-fuels, H2, in an almost comic panic. But tbf, they are doing well at BEV's, though like most of the German auto industry, are slowing things down a bit now.

Along the lines of the H2 v's heatpump diagram, this one shows the relative efficiencies of BEV v's HFCV v's e-fuel. Other charts will have higher numbers for BEV and HFCV efficiency (+10% to 20%), by recognising the energy returned from regen v's brakes on ICEV's (such as e-fuels).



JCB is really weird. They are looking at HICE, with Lord Bamford extolling the virtues of an Indian ICE worker being able to recognise and work on all the components. But I'm left wondering where the users of JCB products in India will get the H2, and the fact that India has excellent solar potential, with PV generation now the cheapest form of energy generation (in sunny climes) and still getting better.

I also thought shipping would be a market for H2, but again, the problems with storage/density kick in. Nothing wrong with H2, seems like I'm bagging on it, but for steel, fertlizer, storage etc, it could be an absolutely excellent technology, but due to the volume/storage for transport it's struggling. A more enrgy dense version for shipping is ammonia, but that's a nasty product, carrying lots of concerns if it leaks. There's also methanol, again using green H2. I'm sure a solution will be found. Plus, around 40% of longer distance shipping, by mass, is for FF's, so moving to RE, would effectively reduce shipping emissions by 40% too. Shorter distance shipping of all kinds is already experimenting with BEV's.

[Apologies, I seem to be in a waffling mood this morning.]

*Hyundai Tucson FCEV Owner Shocked by $113K Repair Bill for Hydrogen Fuel Cell

Hybrids and EVs may be kinder to the environment, but they have a bad reputation for stinging owners with shocking repair costs when things go wrong. In much the same vein, the owner of a hydrogen-powered Hyundai was recently astounded with a six-figure bill when the fuel cell went kaput.
As reported by AutoBild, German IT consultant Till Westberg purchased a Hyundai ix35 seven years ago for the reasonable sum of €50,200—roughly $55,000 nowadays. Known as the Hyundai Tuscon in the U.S., the ix35 was offered with hydrogen power in limited numbers, with the gas used to generate electricity for the drivetrain via a fuel cell. Westberg drove the car for years without fault, racking up over 52,000 miles before disaster struck.
Sadly, Westberg's ix35 simply stopped working one day. The SUV began throwing an error message on the screen when powered up, and would no longer drive. Unfortunately for the German resident, repair seems out of the question. Upon approaching Hyundai for a fix, Westberg was presented with a monstrous €103,764.17 ($113,000) repair bill for the fuel cell system. Tragically, the vehicle, purchased on the cusp of 2016, is now well past its standard five-year warranty period.

michaels

Interesting the 50% conversion loss H2 to electricity - where does that energy go - do fuel cells produce a lot of excess heat?

Martyn1981

michaels said:

Interesting the 50% conversion loss H2 to electricity - where does that energy go - do fuel cells produce a lot of excess heat?

Yep, the main loss is as heat. I don't know if 50% is a fair, or flattering number for a car scale FC, but for large scale ones, possibly at a H2 storage facility, I'm sure I've seen 50% to 60% potentially. That's similar to the efficiency of a CCGT (combined cycle gas turbine), so either may be used to turn the H2 back into leccy, depending on how longer term storage develops. The grid may even like the use of steam turbines, to help with grid frequency inertia, but as mentioned in the vid (Engineering with Rosie), some big batts (or their inverters) can now provide this role in a 'virtual machine mode'.

In the boiler example Z raised, ~60% of that waste energy would be captured as heat, so there's the chance that the 100% energy in the H2, becomes 30% heat, plus 50% leccy. Yes 20% loss is a tad high, but leccy has a higher value perhaps? Or for heat, the leccy via a HP becomes 150%, resulting in a total of around 180% as heat.

Found one of the earlier discussions on the H2 boiler / FC boiler issue, almost 4yrs ago, doesn't time fly.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/76962780#Comment_76962780

zeupater

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Interesting the 50% conversion loss H2 to electricity - where does that energy go - do fuel cells produce a lot of excess heat?

Yep, the main loss is as heat. I don't know if 50% is a fair, or flattering number for a car scale FC, but for large scale ones, possibly at a H2 storage facility, I'm sure I've seen 50% to 60% potentially. That's similar to the efficiency of a CCGT (combined cycle gas turbine), so either may be used to turn the H2 back into leccy, depending on how longer term storage develops. The grid may even like the use of steam turbines, to help with grid frequency inertia, but as mentioned in the vid (Engineering with Rosie), some big batts (or their inverters) can now provide this role in a 'virtual machine mode'.

In the boiler example Z raised, ~60% of that waste energy would be captured as heat, so there's the chance that the 100% energy in the H2, becomes 30% heat, plus 50% leccy. Yes 20% loss is a tad high, but leccy has a higher value perhaps? Or for heat, the leccy via a HP becomes 150%, resulting in a total of around 180% as heat.

Found one of the earlier discussions on the H2 boiler / FC boiler issue, almost 4yrs ago, doesn't time fly.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/76962780#Comment_76962780

Hi

I think the main discussions on the Ceres fuel cells were in about 2011 and ~50% seemed to be what Ceres & BG were talking about then .... however, the specific advantages of the Ceres developed cells were based around a much lower reaction temperature which allowed them to use stainless steel as opposed to ceramic cells, allowing them to achieve reduced unit costs & operate safer in a domestic environment (typical ceramic FCs ~800C ?, depending on technology), but no idea whether the combination of temperature difference & technology would have any effect on the overall electricity/heat mix .... of course, if the heat is recovered & utilised in a domestic environment it vastly increases the overall apparent efficiency vs that in transport where, apart from a little diversion for passenger comfort for some of the year, the heat is simply a wasted co-product.

HTH - Z