Was the MSE Collective Switch a sprat to catch a mackerel?

New2Forum

Hengus wrote: »

Edit:

The problem, as I see it, relates to the projection of past annual usage which E.oN has suggested in other posts comes from 'industry'. My guess is that E.oN's systems default to the average usage for the type of property - rather than take at face value the projected energy assumptions provided by the customer. My projected usage is well short of the norm for my type of property as we have a woodburning stove; smart energy controls and PV Solar.

Sorry - I never saw this edit until just now.


My previous supplier was EDF and the final bill I had from them estimated my annual consumption to be 3,388 kWh - so I cannot believe that E.On could possibly be using anything that they have provided.


Its interesting looking back at the EDF billing and comparing it to E.On. I switched to EDF on 9 Jan 2014. They didn't estimate my annual consumption in the first bill (1st March 2014) but by the second bill (1st April 2014) they had an estimated annual consumption of 3,869 kWh - on the high side, but not unreasonably so. Compare that to E.Ons first estimate for me of over 8,000 kWh. If EDF can get it right for new customers, why cant E.On?


However E.On are [mis]calculating it, it is clearly utter madness for them to decide that my Winter and Spring consumption of 9 kWh per day will be replaced by Summer and Autumn consumption of 34 kWh per day (I also have log burner heating, so don't experience much seasonality with my electric usage)

New2Forum

I've fired off an email to customer services, and in preparing the email, I noticed a couple of errors in my original post. However, despite these errors, the principal remains true and their estimates remain hugely inaccurate, impossible (in my view) to justify and they are definitely demanding far higher direct debit payments than any reasonable person would believe necessary to leave the account with a zero balance after 12 months.
In summary (corrected):
- The E-On 12 month summary is actually their "Estimated use in the last 12 months" - not any projection going forward. I don't think this really matters - whether its past 12 months or next 12 months - my 12 month usage will be relatively consistent
- During my 212 days with E-On, I have used an average of 9.65 kWh per day.
- Prior to being with E-On, between 1st July 2014 and 1st December 2014, with EDF, I used an average of 8.8 kWh per day (I can provide E-On with proof of this from my EDF bills). E-On don't have this information (they should!! But that's an industry/structural problem) and E-On have guesstimated that during this period I used an average of 21.47 mWh per day. Obviously a ridiculous guesstimate! (As they should reasonably know given the estimate I gave them when I switched to them, the current state of my account and my usage in 212 days with them).
- Because they think I used far more electricity before I was with them than I actually did (If they could trust my figures when I switched to them, why cant they trust my figures 212 days later when they can see that my previous estimate was pretty good?) they want to increase my Direct Debit from £39.50 per month to £82 per month. This is despite my account currently being balanced having come through the winter with Summer ahead!

System

@New2Forum. It some ways it would be fairer to customers if E.oN just admitted that before supplying any energy it wanted an £xs deposit. The customer would then have a choice of taking up the offer or not.

I have re-examined my consumption 'this way and every way', and I cannot understand E.oN's estimated annual usage in the last 12 months which, on 1 March, were 3565.34kWhs for electricity and 11645Whs for gas. Only two weeks previously when I switched in, I had given them projected figures of 2400kWhs for electricity and 10400kWhs for gas. (The latter being out by up to 20% because of the installation of Smart heating controls)

Actual usage 1 Jul 14 to 30 Jun 15 was 2442kWhs for electricity and 8574kWhs for gas.

The bit that I do not understand is why any company would go to the trouble of attracting new customers and then, through a process of using highly erroneous estimated past annual usage figures to set an amended monthly DD, upset the customer so much that (a) it resulted in a complaint to the EO and (b) it resulted in a 'ditch and switch'?

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

New2Forum wrote: »

Can I add my voice to those baffled by the E.On estimates/direct debits?


I aim for my usage to be in the ballpark of 10 kWh per day, so when I switched, I would almost certainly have estimated my usage to have been 3,560 kWh per year. I give a reading on the 1st of each month, every month. The estimated annual usage on the bills from E.On make absolutely zero sense to me.


My switch went through on 1st December 2014, and I have had bills through monthly since then (Except 1st May 2015 - when I submitted my meter reading I forgot to click to recalculate my bill). This is how the estimated annual usage has gone and actual monthly usage, as displayed on the E.On bill:


December 30th 2014: Usage: 304 kWh (Estimated 12 month usage 8,273 kWh)
February 1st 2015: Usage: 286 kWh (Estimated 12 month usage 7,050 kWh)
March 1st 2015: Usage: 278 kWh (Estimated 12 month usage 6,310 kWh)
April 1st 2015: Usage 289 kWh (Estimated 12 month usage 5,400 kWh)
June 1st 2015: Usage 552 kWh (Estimated 12 month usage 4,835 kWh)
July 1st 2015: Usage 337 kWh (Estimated 12 month usage 5,309 kWh)


In the 212 days between 1st December 2014 and 1st July 2015 my total usage has been 2,046 kWh.


How on earth did they ever estimate that my usage would be over 8,000 kWh?
How on earth do they still estimate that my usage will be over 5,000 kWh?


If anyone can explain to me where their estimates come from, I'd love to hear it!


My account is, so far broadly balanced. My 1st July balance show as £31.62 and that excludes an expected direct debit payment on 1st July of £39.50 which will presumably put my account £7.88 into credit.


HOWEVER, on the July 2015 bill I have a note saying that "We'd like to change your Direct Debit to £82.00" [from £39.50 per month). WHY? It makes no sense to me!


EDIT: Perhaps the simplest way to look at how crazy the estimate is, is to look at the actual daily usage since 1st December 2015 and E.Ons estimated daily usage to the end of the year (presumably 30th November 2015).
1st December 2014 to 1st July 2015: Actual usage was 9.65 kWh per day
1st July 2015 to 30th November 2015: E.On estimated usage is 34.93 kWh per day
What makes E.On think that my usage will more than treble?

New2Forum wrote: »

I've fired off an email to customer services, and in preparing the email, I noticed a couple of errors in my original post. However, despite these errors, the principal remains true and their estimates remain hugely inaccurate, impossible (in my view) to justify and they are definitely demanding far higher direct debit payments than any reasonable person would believe necessary to leave the account with a zero balance after 12 months.
In summary (corrected):
- The E-On 12 month summary is actually their "Estimated use in the last 12 months" - not any projection going forward. I don't think this really matters - whether its past 12 months or next 12 months - my 12 month usage will be relatively consistent
- During my 212 days with E-On, I have used an average of 9.65 kWh per day.
- Prior to being with E-On, between 1st July 2014 and 1st December 2014, with EDF, I used an average of 8.8 kWh per day (I can provide E-On with proof of this from my EDF bills). E-On don't have this information (they should!! But that's an industry/structural problem) and E-On have guesstimated that during this period I used an average of 21.47 mWh per day. Obviously a ridiculous guesstimate! (As they should reasonably know given the estimate I gave them when I switched to them, the current state of my account and my usage in 212 days with them).
- Because they think I used far more electricity before I was with them than I actually did (If they could trust my figures when I switched to them, why cant they trust my figures 212 days later when they can see that my previous estimate was pretty good?) they want to increase my Direct Debit from £39.50 per month to £82 per month. This is despite my account currently being balanced having come through the winter with Summer ahead!

Hi New2Forum

I have to say, the estimated usage figures we're quoting do seem bizarre given the amount you're actually using. It may be there's been a wrong reading entered at some stage, not necessarily by you, that's thrown the calculation out. Guessing though. If you drop an email to the address in my Profile with your details and up to date meter readings, I'll be happy to take a look.

The estimated figures are only meant to act as a guide. The monthly payments are based on how much electricity we think you'll need up to the annual review and current prices. The aim is to have as close as possible to a zero balance by the annual review. Usage is based on past history but, as you've only been with us since December, we'll usually use details given us by the electricity distributor for your area. You say we don't have this information. This also seems odd and could be having an effect. Again, I can have a look at this. The longer you're a customer the more we'll use your readings.

It's likely the latest review has been influenced by higher winter usage although lack of information from the distributor may be having an impact too. It won't be the estimated figures you mention. If it were, we'll probably be suggesting an increase about three times what you're paying at the moment. Lower summer usage should put things back to the sort of levels you expected when you joined but will still be a good idea to check given your post today.

I know you've emailed us today but still happy to check if you wish.

Malc

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

New2Forum wrote: »

I also manage my elderly parents electric for them, not as extreme, but they have a similar situation.


Their actual usage from 5th December 2014 until 1st July 2015 has been 2,656 kWh, or 12.77 kWh per day.
The latest annual estimate from E.On is 5,792 kWh.
From 1st July 2015 to 4th December 2015, E.On estimate their daily usage to be 20.10 kWh per day - E.On estimating that their usage will increase by nearly 60%.
It cannot be justified by any kind of seasonality - in December 2014 their usage was 14.8 kWh per day and in January 2015 their usage was 11.6 kWh per day.


Their last bill was £46.02, excluding the expected 1st July Direct Debit payment of £51 which should put their account £4.98 in credit, yet their July 1st Bill wants to increase their direct debit from £51 per month to £81 per month. WHY? The current direct debit looks pretty accurate, another £30 per month will lead to the account clearly having a large credit balance at the end of the year.


I will add as well that the online Direct Debit manager won't let the direct debit be reduced enough to be reasonable and in line with their actual annual expected usage (and the same goes for mine)

Happy to look at this account too New2Forum.

Are your parents in the same area as you with the same electricity distributor? Did they switch last December too? Just wondering if there's a wider issue here, particularly if there's missing information from the distributor. Guessing again though.

Malc

New2Forum

Hi Malc,


Thanks for your response, I'll get the account numbers over to you. I'd be really happy if you could look into from the perspective of if there is a wider issue, and I'm happy to let CS look into the specifics of my account (though I may come back to you on that if their response doesn't make sense)


Yes both supplies are in the same area and I helped them switch a few days after my switch was initiated. When I said that you didn't have the previous supply information - that was a presumption on my part (and in some ways offering you some mitigation) - however if you do have the previous information, then that's great (and as it should be).


I thank you for your explanations as to what it might be, but am still struggling even with the possibilities offered, to know how you could come up with a more than doubling of my DD when current usage is in line with my estimate, the account is in credit and the annual review, if it is 6 months from now only goes 1 month into the variable rate. So far as I see it, it can only be coming from the estimated usage (which for whatever reason is wrong). I look forward to getting a more specific response once you've had the opportunity to look into my specific account. (I am encouraged that it looks bizarre to you too )


I would also repeat - my usage is pretty consistent at 10kWh per day throughout the year - I see very little seasonality in my usage.

New2Forum

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

If you drop an email to the address in my Profile with your details and up to date meter readings, I'll be happy to take a look.

Not sure if I'm missing something, but I cannot see an email address in your profile

New2Forum

I've received a response from E.On customer service (credit where its due - surprisingly fast reply) however am not really happy, or convinced by, the response:

Thanks very much for getting in touch. I’m sorry that we didn’t get a correct picture of your previous usage with EDF Energy. Unfortunately I’m not able to see what we estimated for you when you joined.

Your Direct Debit increased for two reasons…..

The reason our system increased your Direct Debit to £82.00 was because your last bill of £43.37 caused you to have a debit balance of £31.62. However your July payment was then received on the same day which left the £7.88 credit balance.

If the payment had been received before the bill had been produced, your Direct Debit may not have gone up.

The other reason is that our Direct Debit scheme works by allowing a small build up of credit in the summer months to pay for higher usage in the winter months.

Can I help with anything else......

I hope I’ve answered your queries and perhaps put your mind at ease.

I apologise again for your Direct Debit being increased unnecessarily and would like to thank you for submitting regular meter readings to obtain accurate bills.

(I'm not sure why MSE is splitting the quote up into two - every time I remove the in-between quote tags, it puts them back)


The reasons that I'm not convinced:
- The impact of the timing of receipt of the £39.50 Direct Debit should not be substantial enough to have any meaningful impact on an increase on a monthly direct debit from £39.50 to £82. (though I will in future mitigate this by sending my meter readings, and generating new bills 1 day after the DD is paid)
- I'm not convinced by the seasonality argument - I've been through the coldest months of the year (December to February) with my direct debit of £39.50 being enough to keep the account in good standing - it makes no sense to me at all to increase my Direct Debit to £82 to cover next winter when £39.50 was enough to cover last winter! (and if my understanding of the annual review dates is correct, I will only have 1 month away from the fixed prices I'm currently on - even if I don't switch)


Although the CS rep did "apologise again for your Direct Debit being increased unnecessarily", so far as I can understand it, the DD was not reset back to £39.50.

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

It's under Biography in my Public Profile. Sorry to ask you to search New2Forum but MSE don't like us posting it openly on the Forums.

Look forward to hearing from you. I'm not back on the Forums now until next Tuesday so hope it's okay if I come back to you then.

Malc

New2Forum

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

It's under Biography in my Public Profile. Sorry to ask you to search New2Forum but MSE don't like us posting it openly on the Forums.

Look forward to hearing from you. I'm not back on the Forums now until next Tuesday so hope it's okay if I come back to you then.

Malc

I don't mind searching - I understand its not your choice. I also understand you probably have work to do and will not live on the forum


I'm still struggling though When I click on your public profile, below is what I see - I cannot see Biography anywhere: