Wood pellets boilers

captainhindsight_2

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

.... and what happens if the member in question (saxonman) has mains gas available (as confirmed) and the discussion revolves around a pellet boiler replacing mains gas for heat provision ???? .... would the above-referenced post then become irrelevant and the statement 'Your figures are so wrong' be proved substantially incorrect ?? ....

HTH
Z

No they would not because they are based on facts.

Compared to gas, the benefit per kWh is 7.64 (fuel savings + RHI) (data from the same sources as above)

So this would mean an annual consumption of 18699 kwH to break even over 7 years.

So for many homes this is still a cost effective solution even switching from gas.

zeupater

captainhindsight wrote: »

No they would not because they are based on facts.

Compared to gas, the benefit per kWh is 7.64 (fuel savings + RHI) (data from the same sources as above)

So this would mean an annual consumption of 18699 kwH to break even over 7 years.

So for many homes this is still a cost effective solution even switching from gas.

Hi

But facts are supportable, so where's the support ?

Try these variables in order to support the stated facts ....

Mains gas @4p/kWh vs Pellets @£230/tonne (fair national average ?)
Pellet embedded energy 4800kWh/tonne
Annual heat requirement (say) 16500kWh.t
Gas boiler replacement £2000
Gas boiler efficiency (BRE boiler SAP database) average ~92%
Pellet boiler efficiency (BRE boiler SAP database) average ~82%
RHI 7.14p/kWh assessed heat requirement for 7years.

Now, there's two likely scenarios - the customer either has a perfectly good modern boiler which will be scrapped and replaced with a pellet boiler -or- the boiler needs replacement anyway. Either way, existing pipework and radiators should be considered as existing ...

So, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ?? .... have fun and do provide working calculations to support the facts ....

HTH
Z

captainhindsight_2

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

But facts are supportable, so where's the support ?

Try these variables in order to support the stated facts ....

Mains gas @4p/kWh vs Pellets @£230/tonne (fair national average ?)
Pellet embedded energy 4800kWh/tonne
Annual heat requirement (say) 16500kWh.t
Gas boiler replacement £2000
Gas boiler efficiency (BRE boiler SAP database) average ~92%
Pellet boiler efficiency (BRE boiler SAP database) average ~82%
RHI 7.14p/kWh assessed heat requirement for 7years.

Now, there's two likely scenarios - the customer either has a perfectly good modern boiler which will be scrapped and replaced with a pellet boiler -or- the boiler needs replacement anyway. Either way, existing pipework and radiators should be considered as existing ...

So, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ?? .... have fun and do provide working calculations to support the facts ....

HTH
Z

I have already done all this and referenced the sources of information.....

Or do you want me to do it again?

captainhindsight_2

I might as well start all over again anyway.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/437373/qep232_1_.xls

This data published 5 days ago by decc shows the average price paid for gas in England for Wales is 5.14p/kWh (average across the different payment types for 2014) in cash terms

Spec for en-plus a1 pellets is shown on this link

http://www.enplus-pellets.eu/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ENplus-Handbook-2.0.pdf

Average 17.75mj/kg which is converted to 4.93kwh/kg.

At your £230 a ton this is 4.7p/kWh.

I don't know where you get you efficiencies from for biomass boilers but say both boilers have 90% efficiency.

This means real cost of heat is

Gas - 5.71p/kWh
Biomass pellet - 5.22p/kWh

Biomass pellet has a fuel saving of 0.49p/kWh over gas.

Rhi is 7.14p/kWh
, therefore pellets have a 7.63p/kWh benefit over gas.

Again say biomass boiler capital cost is £10,000 greater than a gas boiler which is typical for a biomass boiler including large pellet store and £8,000 greater for a manual fill option.

So to break even over 7 years.

£10,000 / 7 years = £1,428.57 a year saving required.

£1,428.57 / 7.63p/kWh saving per kWh = 18,723kwh heat consumption to break even if switching from mains gas for a fully automated pellet boiler with large hopper.

Same calculations again but for fully automatic cleaning manual fill biomass boiler 14,979kwh energy consumption to break even over 7 years.

So as you can see as I already showed before it is cost effective to switch even from gas, and if switching for oil or LPG it really wins hands down.

And this is based on the rhi being metred which it is not, it is calculated using an EPC which often shows much higher than actual consumption figures as they use a worst case cinario methodology when carrying out the assessment, which makes real time payback much shorter.

I don't really know how anyone can disagree with that... But I'm sure some one will!

zeupater

captainhindsight wrote: »

I might as well start all over again anyway.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/437373/qep232_1_.xls

This data published 5 days ago by decc shows the average price paid for gas in England for Wales is 5.14p/kWh (average across the different payment types for 2014) in cash terms

Spec for en-plus a1 pellets is shown on this link

http://www.enplus-pellets.eu/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ENplus-Handbook-2.0.pdf

Average 17.75mj/kg which is converted to 4.93kwh/kg.

At your £230 a ton this is 4.7p/kWh.

I don't know where you get you efficiencies from for biomass boilers but say both boilers have 90% efficiency.

This means real cost of heat is

Gas - 5.71p/kWh
Biomass pellet - 5.22p/kWh

Biomass pellet has a fuel saving of 0.49p/kWh over gas.

Rhi is 7.14p/kWh
, therefore pellets have a 7.63p/kWh benefit over gas.

Again say biomass boiler capital cost is £10,000 greater than a gas boiler which is typical for a biomass boiler including large pellet store and £8,000 greater for a manual fill option.

So to break even over 7 years.

£10,000 / 7 years = £1,428.57 a year saving required.

£1,428.57 / 7.63p/kWh saving per kWh = 18,723kwh heat consumption to break even if switching from mains gas for a fully automated pellet boiler with large hopper.

Same calculations again but for fully automatic cleaning manual fill biomass boiler 14,979kwh energy consumption to break even over 7 years.

So as you can see as I already showed before it is cost effective to switch even from gas, and if switching for oil or LPG it really wins hands down.

And this is based on the rhi being metred which it is not, it is calculated using an EPC which often shows much higher than actual consumption figures as they use a worst case cinario methodology when carrying out the assessment, which makes real time payback much shorter.

I don't really know how anyone can disagree with that... But I'm sure some one will!

Hi
In order ....

Regarding - "This data published 5 days ago by decc shows the average price paid for gas in England for Wales is 5.14p/kWh (average across the different payment types for 2014)" ... Odd, considering that the referenced spreadsheet doesn't contain a usage weighted average, where the the ONS report, which does, (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/415778/qep_mar_15.pdf) Table 2.2.3(P22), shows the figure to be 5.02p/kWh, however, what needs to be taken into consideration is that anyone looking to spend £multi-thousands on a wood-pellet boiler where there's already gas available almost certainly wouldn't be paying for gas on credit terms or pre-payment, so the 'average' figure to compare would be the DD figure of 4.8p/kWh - then there's the benefit of shopping around ... take for example the DD average for the west midlands which is close to the 4.8p national DD average (£719/year:4.79p/kWh:15000kWh), according to the U-Switch comparison site there are currently 18 tariff offerings which would result in a unit price lower than 4p/kWh (inclusive of standing charge & VAT), the lowest overall being ~3.2p/kWh with the lowest offer from one of the 'big 6' being ~3.63p ....

Regarding - "Average 17.75mj/kg which is converted to 4.93kwh/kg." ... well according to the link you provided (http://www.enplus-pellets.eu/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ENplus-Handbook-2.0.pdf), Table1(P11) describes the Net calorific threshold values ranging from 16.0MJ/kg against En-B through to 16.5MJ/kg against EnPlus-A1 .... of course, I'd be happy to use the figures in the source provided (Enplus-A1:4583kWh/Tonne), however, the UK biomass energy centre consider the average to be taken as being 4800kWh/tonne (17GJ/Tonne) - Biomass Energy centre (http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.uk/portal/page?_pageid=75,20041&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL) ....

Now, as for "I don't know where you get you efficiencies from for biomass boilers but say both boilers have 90% efficiency." ... well, as previously stated, they're gleaned from looking at the BRE boiler SAP database ... http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/searchpod.jsp?id=17 ... where pellet boilers are typically showing at around 10% less efficient than an A rated gas condensing boiler (system/regular) ....

Of course, I agree the RHI value/kWh of 7.14p (see earlier post 01/06) and really do think that the figures proposed yesterday would reasonably be considered to be fair when compared to extremes which could be used, so, again, when comparing directly to mains gas, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ?? ... you don't need to consider the price of a pellet boiler system, just the price it would need to be if using the 'fair' variables ....

HTH
Z

captainhindsight_2

zeupater wrote: »

Hi
In order ....

Regarding - "This data published 5 days ago by decc shows the average price paid for gas in England for Wales is 5.14p/kWh (average across the different payment types for 2014)" ... Odd, considering that the referenced spreadshhet doesn't contain a usage weighted average, where the the ONS report, which does, (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/415778/qep_mar_15.pdf) Table 2.2.3(P22), shows the figure to be 5.02p/kWh, however, what needs to be taken into consideration is that anyone looking to spend £multi-thousands on a wood-pellet boiler where there's already gas available almost certainly wouldn't be paying for gas on credit terms or pre-payment, so the 'average' figure to compare would be the DD figure of 4.8p/kWh - then there's the benefit of shopping around ... take for example the DD average for the west midlands which is close to the 4.8p national DD average (£719/year:4.79p/kWh:15000kWh), according to the U-Switch comparison site there are currently 18 tariff offerings which would result in a unit price lower than 4p/kWh, the lowest overall being ~3.2p/kWh with the lowest offer from one of the 'big 6' being ~3.63p ....

Regarding - "Average 17.75mj/kg which is converted to 4.93kwh/kg." ... well according to the link you provided (http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.uk/portal/page?_pageid=75,20041&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL), Table1(P11) describes the Net calorific threshold values ranging from 16.0MJ/kg against En-B through to 16.5MJ/kg against EnPlus-A1 .... of course, I'd be happy to use the figures in the source provided, however, the UK biomass energy centre consider the 4800kWh/tonne (17GJ/Tonne) - Biomass Energy centre (http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.uk/portal/page?_pageid=75,20041&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL) ....

Now, as for "I don't know where you get you efficiencies from for biomass boilers but say both boilers have 90% efficiency." ... well, as previously stated, they're gleaned from looking at the BRE boiler SAP database ... http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/searchpod.jsp?id=17 ... where pellet boiler are typically showing at around 10% less efficient than an A rated gas condensing boiler (system/regular) ....

Of course, I agree the RHI value/kWh of 7.14p (see earlier post 01/06) and really do think that the figures proposed yesterday would reasonably be considered to be fair when compared to extremes which could be used, so, again, when comparing directly to mains gas, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ?? ... you don't need to consider the price of a pellet boiler system, just the price it would need to be if using the 'fair' variables ....

HTH
Z

Oh I see so published data about average gas prices published from DECC is not valid because a small minority pay below the average price....... Some people pay as low as around £180 per ton of pellets but that is not the average price so I haven't referenced that as the price. :rotfl:

In regards to people not on credit metres converting to biomass boilers, yes they do! My company has fitted plenty because our customers and many others can see the benefits even with finance packages they are hundreds of £ better off. Also charities that try to help with fuel poverty have fitted many biomass boilers for free in to many homes and also many housing associations have fitted 100s of biomass boilers in to their housing stock to help reduce people's energy bills. So I don't know where you get your understanding of the market from? :money:

The link I provided for the pellet calorific value was for the specifications to be classed as EN-Plus standard, you have referenced a different source and tried to discredit it...... lol. :beer:

Just had a quick look at the website you provided for boiler efficiencies (http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/ ), I don't know where they get there figures from....

A few examples:

Windhager Biowin 262 according to your link 85.5% according to manufacturer 93.9%

Red Compact 24 according to your link 82.2% according to the manufacturer 90.2%

ETA Hack 25 according to your link 83.6% pellet boiler, according to the manufacturer 92.2% efficient chip boiler. (that one really takes the biscuit! :eek:)

You seem happy to use extreme and one off figures for gas comparisons way below average, and much worse than average figures for biomass. How about what i'm doing, and use published average figures??

So based on average heat consumption of circa 16,500kWh pa. Using the same benefits per kwh as before as they are correct. This would mean a biomass boiler has a 7.63p/kWh benefit over gas. This means (can you not do the math? this is really simple!) the boiler install cost would be £8,812.65 greater than a gas boiler so say £2k for a gas boiler installed this means a capital cost of £10,812.65 to break even which is easily doable with something like a domusa which is probably the best value for money biomass boiler on the market for around £10k installed or something like an outdoor trianco boiler for about £8k installed which have proved very popular.

Next question...? :beer:

theboylard

captainhindsight wrote: »

My company...

Next question...? :beer:

Oh dear.

Bias declared, interest lost.

zeupater

captainhindsight wrote: »

Oh I see so published data about average gas prices published from DECC is not valid because a small minority pay below the average price....... Some people pay as low as around £180 per ton of pellets but that is not the average price so I haven't referenced that as the price. :rotfl:

In regards to people not on credit metres converting to biomass boilers, yes they do! My company has fitted plenty because our customers and many others can see the benefits even with finance packages they are hundreds of £ better off. Also charities that try to help with fuel poverty have fitted many biomass boilers for free in to many homes and also many housing associations have fitted 100s of biomass boilers in to their housing stock to help reduce people's energy bills. So I don't know where you get your understanding of the market from? :money:

The link I provided for the pellet calorific value was for the specifications to be classed as EN-Plus standard, you have referenced a different source and tried to discredit it...... lol. :beer:

Just had a quick look at the website you provided for boiler efficiencies (http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/ ), I don't know where they get there figures from....

A few examples:

Windhager Biowin 262 according to your link 85.5% according to manufacturer 93.9%

Red Compact 24 according to your link 82.2% according to the manufacturer 90.2%

ETA Hack 25 according to your link 83.6% pellet boiler, according to the manufacturer 92.2% efficient chip boiler. (that one really takes the biscuit! :eek:)

You seem happy to use extreme and one off figures for gas comparisons way below average, and much worse than average figures for biomass. How about what i'm doing, and use published average figures??

So based on average heat consumption of circa 16,500kWh pa. Using the same benefits per kwh as before as they are correct. This would mean a biomass boiler has a 7.63p/kWh benefit over gas. This means (can you not do the math? this is really simple!) the boiler install cost would be £8,812.65 greater than a gas boiler so say £2k for a gas boiler installed this means a capital cost of £10,812.65 to break even which is easily doable with something like a domusa which is probably the best value for money biomass boiler on the market for around £10k installed or something like an outdoor trianco boiler for about £8k installed which have proved very popular.

Next question...? :beer:

Hi

Again ... in order ...

"Oh I see so published data about average gas prices published from DECC is not valid because a small minority pay below the average price" ... no, you simply cannot take the average of a number of average columns in a spread-sheet and calculate the average and expect it to be correct without weighting the calculation to allow for the relative size of the elements. Take, for example an average of one dataset being 1 and an average of another being 2 - would the overall average be 1.5 ? ... well what if the first dataset had 100 entries and the second only 10 ? .... The report I referenced is HM Government official ONS data in context and includes weighted averages ....

"Some people pay as low as around £180 per ton of pellets but that is not the average price so I haven't referenced that as the price." ... and some pay delivery on low prices, some have bulk storage facilities and others pay in excess of £260/tonne delivered .... £230/tonne delivered seems to be a pretty fair sum for the calculation ....

"In regards to people ..... So I don't know where you get your understanding of the market from" ... probably from applied logic where it's necessary and having well researched the market, efficiencies and financial viability when looking at having one installed .... maybe this isn't always the case for people looking at installing a pellet boiler in a well insulated average size property where mains gas is available ...

"The link I provided for the pellet calorific value was for the specifications to be classed as EN-Plus standard, you have referenced a different source and tried to discredit it...... " ... no, as previously mentioned, the link you provided (within Table1 on Page11) actually specifies the Net calorific threshold value of EnPlus-A1 as being 16.5MJ/kg, that's 4583kWh/tonne as opposed to the 17.75Mj/kg (4930kWh/tonne) which you claimed directly after the link .... The source I referenced (The Biomass Energy Centre) is the UK government information centre for the use of biomass for energy in the UK and is there to help support both biomass customers and the industry and therefore have no interest in discrediting your figures, you, or the company you work for ....

"Just had a quick look at the website you provided for boiler efficiencies (http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/ ), I don't know where they get there figures from...." ... well I suppose that they are the result of the official test results as opposed to the sales literature considering that it's the BRE (Building Research establishment), which is the official UK source for all things technical regarding buildings and the things which go into them, including heating and effectively own the SAP/rdSAP calculations which the energy performance certificates of buildings are based on, along with the official UK database (used to be called SEDBUK) for efficiency rating of boilers ... their input is pretty important in the building or heating industry, I doubt that there'd even be FiT or RHI schemes without them, so I'd pretty much be swayed to use their 'seasonally adjusted' efficiency data than the 'best possible' manufacturer claims which usually ignore the ignition process, pre-heat and heat-soak cycles ....

"... best value for money biomass boiler on the market for around £10k installed or something like an outdoor trianco boiler for about £8k installed which have proved very popular" ... including pellet storage & auto-feed mechanism ? ... one of the advantages of mains gas, oil heating or LPG is that you don't need to manually refuel every couple of days .... if we're comparing it should be like-for-like ....

Now, what about using realistic variables, from official sources and therefore consider the question at hand, using the variables provided, which are neither extreme or biased in any way, as demonstrated with supporting references .... so, when comparing directly to mains gas, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ??

HTH
Z

captainhindsight_2

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Again ... in order ...

"Oh I see so published data about average gas prices published from DECC is not valid because a small minority pay below the average price" ... no, you simply cannot take the average of a number of average columns in a spread-sheet and calculate the average and expect it to be correct without weighting the calculation to allow for the relative size of the elements. Take, for example an average of one dataset being 1 and an average of another being 2 - would the overall average be 1.5 ? ... well what if the first dataset had 100 entries and the second only 10 ? .... The report I referenced is HM Government official ONS data in context and includes weighted averages ....

"Some people pay as low as around £180 per ton of pellets but that is not the average price so I haven't referenced that as the price." ... and some pay delivery on low prices, some have bulk storage facilities and others pay in excess of £260/tonne delivered .... £230/tonne delivered seems to be a pretty fair sum for the calculation ....

"In regards to people ..... So I don't know where you get your understanding of the market from" ... probably from applied logic where it's necessary and having well researched the market, efficiencies and financial viability when looking at having one installed .... maybe this isn't always the case for people looking at installing a pellet boiler in a well insulated average size property where mains gas is available ...

"The link I provided for the pellet calorific value was for the specifications to be classed as EN-Plus standard, you have referenced a different source and tried to discredit it...... " ... no, as previously mentioned, the link you provided (within Table1 on Page11) actually specifies the Net calorific threshold value of EnPlus-A1 as being 16.5MJ/kg, that's 4583kWh/tonne as opposed to the 17.75Mj/kg (4930kWh/tonne) which you claimed directly after the link .... The source I referenced (The Biomass Energy Centre) is the UK government information centre for the use of biomass for energy in the UK and is there to help support both biomass customers and the industry and therefore have no interest in discrediting your figures, you, or the company you work for ....

"Just had a quick look at the website you provided for boiler efficiencies (http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/ ), I don't know where they get there figures from...." ... well I suppose that they are the result of the official test results as opposed to the sales literature considering that it's the BRE (Building Research establishment), which is the official UK source for all things technical regarding buildings and the things which go into them, including heating and effectively own the SAP/rdSAP calculations which the energy performance certificates of buildings are based on, along with the official UK database (used to be called SEDBUK) for efficiency rating of boilers ... their input is pretty important in the building or heating industry, I doubt that there'd even be FiT or RHI schemes without them, so I'd pretty much be swayed to use their 'seasonally adjusted' efficiency data than the 'best possible' manufacturer claims which usually ignore the ignition process, pre-heat and heat-soak cycles ....

"... best value for money biomass boiler on the market for around £10k installed or something like an outdoor trianco boiler for about £8k installed which have proved very popular" ... including pellet storage & auto-feed mechanism ? ... one of the advantages of mains gas, oil heating or LPG is that you don't need to manually refuel every couple of days .... if we're comparing it should be like-for-like ....

Now, what about using realistic variables, from official sources and therefore consider the question at hand, using the variables provided, which are neither extreme or biased in any way, as demonstrated with supporting references .... so, when comparing directly to mains gas, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ??

HTH
Z

I've answered your question several times already you don't like the answer so you keep trying to change the question. It's pathetic. Grow up and see the facts.

captainhindsight_2

theboylard wrote: »

Oh dear.

Bias declared, interest lost.

What biased is that? My company installs gas, oil, biomass, ashp, gshp, chp, solar pv,solar thermal,gasification and anaerobic digestion.
What bias is that? I have first hand experience of renewable and non renewable technologies so surely my first hand experience and knowledge is more valuable rather than ill informed opinion from people who have never even seen a biomass boiler or ashp?