Wood pellets boilers

zeupater

captainhindsight wrote: »

I've answered your question several times already you don't like the answer so you keep trying to change the question. It's pathetic. Grow up and see the facts.

Hi

No, it's plain to all that you haven't made any attempt to answer anything without bias and almost everything which has been used to support your version of the facts are open to question, that's not question against spurious internet sources, but official UK government information sites designed and supported by the biomass industry to operate and provide independent advice ... then there's the BRE, the technical body which provides the basis of the EPCs and GDARs required to access RHI and FiT funding as well as operating MCS product and installer certification on behalf of DECC along with many other services. As mentioned previously, facts are supportable, so where's the support ? ... if referenced support is provided which would render the given variables unreasonable, then I'm open to discussion on changing the variables to suit .... however, I consider the ones currently posed to be reasonable and easily supportable and have seen nothing to change my view, apart from maybe using 15000kWh/year as a more reasonable annual heating provision, but as that further harms the case for pellet boilers, I see no point in reducing the necessary 'breakeven' purchase price point by a further ~10%, so let's leave that at 16500kWh.t/year ....

Regarding "you don't like the answer so you keep trying to change the question" ... well the same question was asked in post #13 along with the variables ....

zeupater wrote: »

... So, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ?? .... have fun and do provide working calculations to support the facts ....

... and post #16 in the form of ...

zeupater wrote: »

... so, again, when comparing directly to mains gas, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ?? ...

... again in post #19, with exactly the same working ...

zeupater wrote: »

.... when comparing directly to mains gas, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ?? ...

... so oddly, and unexplainably, yet another fact seems to be questionable, so for clarity, here's the same final paragraph as that posed in post #19, repeated in full and unchanged, with the exercise variables to be used being found in post #13, also unchanged ....

Now, what about using realistic variables, from official sources and therefore consider the question at hand, using the variables provided, which are neither extreme or biased in any way, as demonstrated with supporting references .... so, when comparing directly to mains gas, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ??

HTH
Z

captainhindsight_2

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

No, it's plain to all that you haven't made any attempt to answer anything without bias and almost everything which has been used to support your version of the facts are open to question, that's not question against spurious internet sources, but official UK government information sites designed and supported by the biomass industry to operate and provide independent advice ... then there's the BRE, the technical body which provides the basis of the EPCs and GDARs required to access RHI and FiT funding as well as operating MCS product and installer certification on behalf of DECC along with many other services. As mentioned previously, facts are supportable, so where's the support ? ... if referenced support is provided which would render the given variables unreasonable, then I'm open to discussion on changing the variables to suit .... however, I consider the ones currently posed to be reasonable and easily supportable and have seen nothing to change my view, apart from maybe using 15000kWh/year as a more reasonable annual heating provision, but as that further harms the case for pellet boilers, I see no point in reducing the necessary 'breakeven' purchase price point by a further ~10%, so let's leave that at 16500kWh.t/year ....

Regarding "you don't like the answer so you keep trying to change the question" ... well the same question was asked in post #13 along with the variables ....

... and post #16 in the form of ...

... again in post #19, with exactly the same working ...

... so oddly, and unexplainably, yet another fact seems to be questionable, so for clarity, here's the same final paragraph as that posed in post #19, repeated in full and unchanged, with the exercise variables to be used being found in post #13, also unchanged ....

Now, what about using realistic variables, from official sources and therefore consider the question at hand, using the variables provided, which are neither extreme or biased in any way, as demonstrated with supporting references .... so, when comparing directly to mains gas, what would the purchase price of a pellet boiler need to be to break even over the 7 years of the RHI payment ??

HTH
Z

I have used realistic variables from multiple official sources and answered the question. You in the other hand have not, and have claimed in one hand average figures from official sources are not applicable because X and in the other hand average figures from official sources are applicable because Y. Seems a bit hypocritical.....

zeupater

captainhindsight wrote: »

I have used realistic variables from multiple official sources and answered the question. You in the other hand have not, and have claimed in one hand average figures from official sources are not applicable because X and in the other hand average figures from official sources are applicable because Y. Seems a bit hypocritical.....

Hi

So ....

... A source for "17.75MJ/Kg" ...
... A source for gas averaging "5.14p/kWh" without the obvious logic error ....
... What about a source to support the assumption "but say both boilers have 90% efficiency" when you yourself are astounded that official (BRE/SEDBUK) seasonally adjusted figures show about a 10% difference to sales literature ...
... How about not leaving the storage & auto-feed out of the discussion - you mentioned it in your first post (#9) which was acknowledged as £14k in my post #10 ... it's a component of pellet heating storage & delivery just as LPG or oil bulk storage is to their respective technologies, so why leave it out ? ...
... and, and ...

Other than a face-saving exercise for the cost comparison to oil error (Post#10) and an attempt to justify high capital expenditure by utilising information bias and data misrepresentation to confound potential customers (which is something we often see on these boards), I see no logical advantage in your continuing this discussion as it's only harming the industry you're in ... you're actually preaching to the converted - well over 90% of my own space heating requirement is satisfied from biomass from local sources, pv and solar thermal provide what they're supposed to, our property meets passivhaus requirements on two of the three main measures, our food is mainly home grown or locally sourced and there's a PHEV on the drive .... I've used solar on and off for close to 45years, solar thermal for almost 40years and biomass as a heat source for well over 20years .... so, there's some pretty basic 'renewables' experience to start with - I live with it and have done for years ...

... come and knock on my door and tell me that I'm paying 5.14p/kW for gas when I know that I could be paying well under 4p or that the boiler averages 90% efficient heat supply, or pellet supply average 4930kWh/tonne and you'd be leaving all credibility at the door ... that's exactly the same door as the pv salesmen which used similar tactics (inflating in house usage, import cost/kWh etc) were quickly shown the way to a number of years back .... of course, there would be one advantage - I'd probably be annoyed enough to spur me into checking the best available gas tariff, thus potentially saving close to £300/year ((Your 5.14p-UswitchLowest 3.2p)*15000) with no outlay, that's over £2000 banked over the RHI's 7 years with no £14k expenditure, that's £16k better off so far .... fair starting point for negotiations which include RHI income of £7.5k, pellets costing more/kWh than gas and a boiler efficiency gap of around 10% .... now where's the door ?

Against delivered bulk LPG and Oil, pellet boilers make sense as long as the RHI is factored in, against mains gas pellet boilers only make sense if the heat demand is high enough to dilute the install costs and provide economies of scale to fuel purchases -and- RHI support is available .... in those cases I fully support pellet biomass heating, but it doesn't make sense at current prices where heat demand is anywhere near the UK average .... claiming otherwise simply does the renewables industry as a whole a complete disservice ....

HTH
Z

captainhindsight_2

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

So ....

... A source for "17.75MJ/Kg" ...
... A source for gas averaging "5.14p/kWh" without the obvious logic error ....
... What about a source to support the assumption "but say both boilers have 90% efficiency" when you yourself are astounded that official (BRE/SEDBUK) seasonally adjusted figures show about a 10% difference to sales literature ...
... How about not leaving the storage & auto-feed out of the discussion - you mentioned it in your first post (#9) which was acknowledged as £14k in my post #10 ... it's a component of pellet heating storage & delivery just as LPG or oil bulk storage is to their respective technologies, so why leave it out ? ...
... and, and ...

Other than a face-saving exercise for the cost comparison to oil error (Post#10) and an attempt to justify high capital expenditure by utilising information bias and data misrepresentation to confound potential customers (which is something we often see on these boards), I see no logical advantage in your continuing this discussion as it's only harming the industry you're in ... you're actually preaching to the converted - well over 90% of my own space heating requirement is satisfied from biomass from local sources, pv and solar thermal provide what they're supposed to, our property meets passivhaus requirements on two of the three main measures, our food is mainly home grown or locally sourced and there's a PHEV on the drive .... I've used solar on and off for close to 45years, solar thermal for almost 40years and biomass as a heat source for well over 20years .... so, there's some pretty basic 'renewables' experience to start with - I live with it and have done for years ...

... come and knock on my door and tell me that I'm paying 5.14p/kW for gas when I know that I could be paying well under 4p or that the boiler averages 90% efficient heat supply, or pellet supply average 4930kWh/tonne and you'd be leaving all credibility at the door ... that's exactly the same door as the pv salesmen which used similar tactics (inflating in house usage, import cost/kWh etc) were quickly shown the way to a number of years back .... of course, there would be one advantage - I'd probably be annoyed enough to spur me into checking the best available gas tariff, thus potentially saving close to £300/year ((Your 5.14p-UswitchLowest 3.2p)*15000) with no outlay, that's over £2000 banked over the RHI's 7 years with no £14k expenditure, that's £16k better off so far .... fair starting point for negotiations which include RHI income of £7.5k, pellets costing more/kWh than gas and a boiler efficiency gap of around 10% .... now where's the door ?

Against delivered bulk LPG and Oil, pellet boilers make sense as long as the RHI is factored in, against mains gas pellet boilers only make sense if the heat demand is high enough to dilute the install costs and provide economies of scale to fuel purchases -and- RHI support is available .... in those cases I fully support pellet biomass heating, but it doesn't make sense at current prices where heat demand is anywhere near the UK average .... claiming otherwise simply does the renewables industry as a whole a complete disservice ....

HTH
Z

I've given up reading your posts because they are so ridiculous! You keep using biased and incorrect data to support your ridiculous and unfounded opinion.

theboylard

Just to throw this in, re the gas part.
I went live with Zog Energy today (last reading to Sainsburys and first to Zog was given about 11.30 pm last night online.
This is what I pay in the East Midlands:



My total gas usage since May1 to June 30 is 269.3kWh
At SainsburysEnergy rates, that equates to £8.81 for the gas, and £12.81 for the daily standing charge!

You can see from the above rates that with Zog that would have been £7.98 for the gas, but the daily standing charge is less than half at £5.67.

I've left the leccy with Sainsburys as that is cheaper than anything else, and they waived the early exit charge for the gas because of problems with the transfer.

Please use the numbers above, real world usage figures, for the calculations.

captainhindsight_2

theboylard wrote: »

Just to throw this in, re the gas part.
I went live with Zog Energy today (last reading to Sainsburys and first to Zog was given about 11.30 pm last night online.
This is what I pay in the East Midlands:



My total gas usage since May1 to June 30 is 269.3kWh
At SainsburysEnergy rates, that equates to £8.81 for the gas, and £12.81 for the daily standing charge!

You can see from the above rates that with Zog that would have been £7.98 for the gas, but the daily standing charge is less than half at £5.67.

I've left the leccy with Sainsburys as that is cheaper than anything else, and they waived the early exit charge for the gas because of problems with the transfer.

Please use the numbers above, real world usage figures, for the calculations.

How are these real world figures, real world figures are published actual data from the department of energy and climate change. I am not saying you cant achieve these figures, but they are not average figures so are not applicable when making impartial comparisons using facts from published reputable sources.

zeupater

theboylard wrote: »

Just to throw this in, re the gas part.
I went live with Zog Energy today (last reading to Sainsburys and first to Zog was given about 11.30 pm last night online.
This is what I pay in the East Midlands:



My total gas usage since May1 to June 30 is 269.3kWh
At SainsburysEnergy rates, that equates to £8.81 for the gas, and £12.81 for the daily standing charge!

You can see from the above rates that with Zog that would have been £7.98 for the gas, but the daily standing charge is less than half at £5.67.

I've left the leccy with Sainsburys as that is cheaper than anything else, and they waived the early exit charge for the gas because of problems with the transfer.

Please use the numbers above, real world usage figures, for the calculations.

Hi

Thanks, using your figures the annual cost/kWh based on 15000kWh demand would be 3.19431p/kWh (((9.45*365)+(2.96436*15000))/15000) .... I take it that it's considered acceptable that I used a rounded 3.2p/kWh as the lowest currently available cost for 15000kWh and that it's therefore neither 'biased' or 'incorrect' ??

Actually, as I've been attempting to explain, the lower the usage (or rather GDAR assessed heat demand), the worse the case gets for the justification of biomass pellet stove prices, so don't hold your breath and expect either your 'real world' gas cost/kWh or 'real world' usage to be accepted in any calculation. I'd certainly support it's use based on the premise that it's readily available to anyone who has the gumption to spend a few minutes on a phone or website ....

HTH
Z

theboylard

I'm giggling now, sorry!

Serious face:
So as an actual gas user, that'll be me by the way, in a 4 bed detached with a WB Greenstar 24 ri heat only gas boiler, 13 rads & hot water cylinder is not a real world property, using actual, installed figures??!

Wut?!

So manufacturer published specs, which are based on ideal conditions in a test lab enviroment, not an actual house, are more valid than what an actual house has used??

I bet you believe the mileage figures in new car brochures too?

I'll just throw my gas usage out there: for the 12 months to yesterday was 1086m³ or 12185.61kWh.

EricMears

This thread is getting awfully tedious for the rest of us !

Those of us considering getting a wood pellet boiler to qualify for the RHI payments should be perfectly capable of doing the sums for ourselves using our own historical data which is the only 'real' data that is remotely relevant and are very unlikely to be taken in by some chancer promoting his own company.

zeupater

EricMears wrote: »

This thread is getting awfully tedious for the rest of us !

Those of us considering getting a wood pellet boiler to qualify for the RHI payments should be perfectly capable of doing the sums for ourselves using our own historical data which is the only 'real' data that is remotely relevant and are very unlikely to be taken in by some chancer promoting his own company.

Hi Eric

Tend to agree ... I'm content that saxonman made the correct decision early on ....

saxonman wrote: »

we've sacked the idea, due to silly prices, and not thinking straight.
Thanks for all the info .....

... I just don't agree with industry insiders intentionally manipulating data to promote/enhance the perception of product viability - a few pence added on here, a little on embedded energy there, manipulate efficiency a little and the average potential customer isn't likely to notice that they could be being sold something which will probably turn out to add to costs, not savings ... you'll also have noticed over the years that I have a certain distaste for a number of 'snakeoil' product £saving/efficiency% claims too - the problem here is that biomass pellet and woodchip boilers are really good, I know a number of people who have them in both fully domestic and combined domestic/commercial(farm) settings - a friend even has a number of holiday cottages sharing a biomass boiler over a heat-main which I helped with sourcing, planning and, to a minor degree, installation, but even great products don't suit all applications and those who claim otherwise simply do the industry harm ...

HTH
Z