Brexit

kbrumann

Decisions in the EU are taken either by the member states or the elected representatives in the European Parliament. That British media rarely reports on the processes, as it would on Westminster Parliament doesn't make it undemocratic.

Greece's problem is that it has gone on a binge and now lacks volunteers to lend her more money. These problems may be attributed to a failure Greece's democracy, government public or both, made more complex by the membership of a common currency. But it doesn't make European institutions undemocratic.

It is really a pity that even the politically engaged do not follow or participate the lively debates in Europe. There is somewhat more public (and media) interest in the debates in Spain, France, Germany, ...

RJP33

Generali wrote: »

It's not worth the time investment for me. You wouldn't believe me and I'm not going to spend the several hours required.

I would happily believe you if you could, but I suspect you can't.

MacMickster wrote: »

The economic case for remaining as a member of the EU is pretty much a no-brainer. Outside of the EU the UK will definitely be worse off economically.

Can you prove this statement?

This seems to be accepted in certain circles without question and we should examine whether it's actually true.

Generali

RJP33 wrote: »

I would happily believe you if you could, but I suspect you can't.
Can you prove this statement?

This seems to be accepted in certain circles without question and we should examine whether it's actually true.

I can think of little I could care less about than trying to prove something to someone who has a closed mind.

antrobus

RJP33 wrote: »

I would happily believe you if you could, but I suspect you can't......

Is it really that difficult to type something 'economic case for EU membership' into Google and finding something like this?

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/should-we-stay-or-should-we-go-the-economic-consequences-of-leaving-the-eu/

gfplux

Good common sense Alleycat, post 440
However who will give us the data so we can make our own decision.
There is almost nobody who does not have their own private agenda.
Would you believe the Data give to you by
The prime minister
The leader of the opposition
BBC
SKY news
ITV
Daily Mail
The Times
The Gardian
Etc, etc.

Life and data is never that simple.

RJP33

Generali wrote: »

I can think of little I could care less about than trying to prove something to someone who has a closed mind.

Or in other words, like Nick Clegg when it comes down to it you can't.

antrobus wrote: »

Is it really that difficult to type something 'economic case for EU membership' into Google and finding something like this?

I could also type in economic case for leaving the EU and get something showing quite the opposite. Why not show us here?

antrobus

RJP33 wrote: »

Or in other words, like Nick Clegg when it comes down to it you can't.
I could also type in economic case for leaving the EU and get something showing quite the opposite. Why not show us here?

The costs and benefits of the UK leaving the EU are complex. Losses due to trade alone could be very substantial. Even under very optimistic assumptions, the sum of the static and dynamic trade losses would be almost 2.2% of GDP. More pessimistic calculations would lead to a long-term loss of almost a tenth of national income. The dream of splendid isolation may turn out to be a very costly one indeed.

Ottaviano, G, J Pessoa, T Sampson and J Van Reenen (2014) ‘The Costs and Benefits of Leaving the EU’, CEP mimeo
http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/pa016.pdf

Or if you wanted to find something to beef up the case for Brexit, you could always try;

We therefore conclude that in almost every area we have examined the benefit: cost trade-off is positive.

Cutting the Gordian knot: A road map for British exit from the European Union by Iain Murray and Rory Broomfield
http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Entry23_Cutting%20the%20Gordian%20knot_web.pdf

That might be worth reading. If only for the paragraph that goes; In a free-trade lesson the UK could learn from, in November 2011 Canada announced that, to help spur the economy, it was eliminating tariffs on imports used by Canadian manufacturers (Reuters 2011). Tariffs would be cut on about 70 items, the latest in government moves to get rid of all tariffs by 2015. Canada already has abolished tariffs on more than 1800 items—relief that is expected to add about US $423 million annually to its economy.

Yet more evidence that Canada has a "very protective economy".:)

CLAPTON

antrobus wrote: »

T


Cutting the Gordian knot: A road map for British exit from the European Union by Iain Murray and Rory Broomfield
http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Entry23_Cutting%20the%20Gordian%20knot_web.pdf

That might be worth reading. If only for the paragraph that goes; In a free-trade lesson the UK could learn from, in November 2011 Canada announced that, to help spur the economy, it was eliminating tariffs on imports used by Canadian manufacturers (Reuters 2011). Tariffs would be cut on about 70 items, the latest in government moves to get rid of all tariffs by 2015. Canada already has abolished tariffs on more than 1800 items—relief that is expected to add about US $423 million annually to its economy.

Yet more evidence that Canada has a "very protective economy".:)

so the UK could benefit from reducing tariffs with all our trading partners once we leave the shackles of the EU tariff walls?

S0litaire

Looks like Cameron's kicked it into the long grass again...

No EU treaty change till "after" the referendum!

David Cameron accepts EU treaty change delay - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33278440

MacMickster

kbrumann wrote: »

Decisions in the EU are taken either by the member states or the elected representatives in the European Parliament. That British media rarely reports on the processes, as it would on Westminster Parliament doesn't make it undemocratic.

Greece's problem is that it has gone on a binge and now lacks volunteers to lend her more money. These problems may be attributed to a failure Greece's democracy, government public or both, made more complex by the membership of a common currency. But it doesn't make European institutions undemocratic.

It is really a pity that even the politically engaged do not follow or participate the lively debates in Europe. There is somewhat more public (and media) interest in the debates in Spain, France, Germany, ...

I have to disagree.

Legislative changes within the EU are almost entirely derived from the European Commission rather than the parliament, effectively rendering the EU parliament a mere talking shop. EU commissioners are appointed by each national government. In the UK's case the commissioner doesn't represent the party supported by the electorate in the EU elections. The electorate do not have any say in who the Commissioners are nor the policies that they put forward.

EU commissioners are also obliged to act in the interests of the EU as a body rather than any national interest.

The interest of the EU and its legions of bureaucrats is undoubtedly in moving towards a federal Europe, although this goal is not set down in any treaty on which anyone has had a chance to vote.

This is not my definition of democracy I'm afraid.