Advice on 16 year old daughter please.

dug123

I would firstly apologise for this being a long post but I need to explain the background.
Back in 2009 my wife was diagnosed with cancer and given 6 months to live. We had 2 kids, my son was 16 and just starting college and my daughter was 11 and just starting high school.
My wife did not want to go into a hospice as she wouldn’t see much of the kids and we all agreed so I gave up work to look after her full time. The cancer spread to her spine and brain and so she ended up bedridden and not always knowing what was going on etc.
She actually lived over 4 years and passed away in 2013. So my son finished college and got a good job and got his own house and moved out and we have a good relationship.
But my daughter went off the rails. I understand completely because while I spent my teenage years enjoying myself, she spent her teenage years waiting for her mother to die and that was obviously horrible and I always keep this thought in my head that there are reasons for her behavioural problems.
She was nasty to her mother and would never help her and we got her counselling both at a local hospice and through the doctor and although they would never tell me or the wife what was going on (patient confidentiality!) with her we were led to believe that she blamed her mother for being ill and took it out on her.
So while we were all trying to make my wife’s life as good as possible while she was here, my daughter was being nasty to her (and others) and stealing off her etc. Whilst my wife was lying in bed dying my daughter was going through her purse to steal money.
My life was a nightmare in this period because I had to look after my wife and at the same time feed the kids and do the washing and shopping etc and my wife would wake up at 3 0 clock in the morning and think it was evening and want to watch TV and talk to me and have a meal and then drift back to sleep just in time for me to get up and make sure the kids were up and fed clothed and off to school. If I needed to go to the doctors or chemists or supermarket etc I would have to get a neighbour to sit with my wife, my daughter would not do it and I know I would come back and find my daughter in bed and my wife crying. My daughter was nasty.
So in 2013 my wife passed away and within a couple of weeks the counsellor who was dealing with my daughter called me in and said that she did not need to see my daughter any longer. She would not tell me anything but said that one day my daughter might choose to tell me why she was like she was. (Even though I could guess that she was angry with her mother for dying and that was the underlying cause for her behaviour).
Anyway her behaviour took a turn for the better and everyone said how she had improved but this only lasted about a month or so and then she started slipping back to her nasty and lying ways.
It took about 9 months but eventually I got a job (not easy when you are the wrong side of 50 and haven’t worked for over 5 years!) and my daughter started college and life became a bit easier, I am lucky that I have no debt whatsoever and no financial worries so life is steady but could never be described as good.
I never go out, I know that I should get a social life but I do not want to start going out and leaving my daughter at home by herself late at night, I know I would enjoy myself and if I was lucky I might meet someone nice and who knows but I want to wait until my daughter is 18 (next summer) and this also gives me more time for some of my wounds to heal.
So my daughter is probably a typical teenager, she is happy to live like a tramp, she does not look after herself, she does not care about anyone or anything, she has no motivation, she just wants to lie in bed watching TV or playing on her Xbox. Everything is too much trouble, she cannot be bothered.
Every few months we have a big bust up and I always take her straight round to my parents (in their 70’s) and they act as mediators and calm everything down. My daughter ends up having a cry and promising to change and try and this works for a week or two and then she gradually slips back into lala land.
Anyway fast forward to this week. My daughter is on holiday from college and on Thursday I told her she had to have her haircut it is long and lank, she said she wouldn’t and I told her that if she didn’t then I would cut it when I got home (naughty I know) she was then going to her grandparents for tea.
So I got home from work about 6:30 and my daughter was not here so I phoned her grandparents and she had not gone for tea (they only live about 100 yards away).
So I checked her phone and it was turned off. I have no idea who her friends are (on social media) etc so I sat and waited, about 8 0 clock there was a loud knocking on the door and there were 2 women and a bloke and my daughter (they were all probably late 40’s and a real motley crew) they said that they wanted my daughters clothes because she was leaving home! I said hang on a minute and went inside and phone granddad and asked him to come round (as a witness).
I let them into the living room and asked what was going on they said that my daughter was going to live with them, they had been to the NSPCC and reported me for cruelty and abuse and my daughter was leaving. Granddad turned up and we explained that this was not happening, at this stage the male was very in your face confrontational and I warned Granddad not to do anything (obviously they were looking for trouble) So I phoned the police and they left with my daughter.
So now I must jump back a couple of years to when my wife was alive, my daughter got a job working every other weekend for someone my wife vaguely knew and this was the woman and her husband and a friend of hers (the motley crew) and it turns out that this woman had been to my wife’s funeral and although this is a blur in my memory this was the only time I had ever met her, But shortly after that I was told that the woman that my daughter worked for had told her that if ever she had problems at home now that her mum was dead that she could go and live with her! I was told this by someone who overheard the conversation and thought it strange and I must admit it went over my head and I ignored it. I did not know the women or where she lived or anything about her.
My daughter has been working odd Saturdays off and on for this woman and I was glad she was getting out and earning a bit of pocket money and getting some work experience (serving in a cafe type environment).
So jump back to Thursday night and the police turned up and I told them the story about the motley crew turning up and gave them the registration numbers of the cars they had and then about 30 minutes later the police returned with my daughter and sent her to bed, They explained that they had talked to my daughter and the cruelty and abuse is because I have an app on her phone which turns off all her apps at 9 0 clock at night until 8 0 clock in the morning (to stop her being on facebook all night!) and her phone can only make phone calls during these hours and they explained to her that monitoring a teenagers social media habits was more like normal concerned parenting than abuse or cruelty and she should get her hair cut. So the police said that it was obvious she was in no danger at home she was just being silly and teenagerish and they had explained this to the Motley crew. So my daughter is back home and back to normal.
BUT, The motley crew has me worried, I believe that their actions are strange to put it mildly, I know nothing about grooming but I am wondering if that is what they have been doing (I would describe my daughter as vulnerable) and I am unsure what to do.
My first instincts are to go and find the couple who came to the house and batter the confrontational bloke (just hurt him a little) and spray “beware groomer” on his car. But I obviously do not want to risk losing my daughter or my job by having a short holiday paid for by her majesty.
I can obviously stop my daughter working for the woman but I cannot stop her contacting her on social media or by phone or for all I know my daughter might be visiting her while I am at work.
MY point of view is that it is very strange, if one of my daughters friends came round and said they were leaving home and wanted to stay with me then I would go and visit their parents and explain the situation and bring their parents back to my house to talk to their daughter and sort their problems out, I would not go and ask for their clothes!
The only contact I have ever had with this women and her husband was at my wifes funeral and probably went along the lines of “thank you for coming” followed by a hand shake.
Any advice would be very much appreciated.

pollypenny

Oh, wow! No advice, really just sympathy!

The only good thing is that the police are clearly aware of the strange interventions of these people.

I would resist the temptation to go near them, as you'll be the one in trouble.

Can your son be any help? Speaking to his sister, getting her to see some Sense?

FBaby

What a dreaful and difficult situation for all of you. My heart went to both of you. I think you are both victims of the terrible loss of your wife/mother.

What did strike me in your post which made me wonder whether this was maybe something to focus on is that you seem to be treated your daughter as a much younger child than she is. I can see how with what happened, you would feel over protective of her and this might be the reason. Yet from her perspective, she has had to grow up much quicker than her peers and therefore more needing to be treated as a young adult.

What comes out of your post is that your DD is trying to cope with depression and that a lot of her actions as the result of it, which is probably directly linked with her coming to terms with her feelings of anger and the incredible sense of grief that might be attached to it. It sounds to me that your DD more than ever needs counselling help with the RIGHT counsellor.

If this is indeed correct, than I think that you really need to pick your battles with her. Your priority is to regain a level of relationship and trust with her. This means that she needs to see you as an ally in her grief, not her enemy. I so know the frustration of dealing with a child who is lacking in motivation and self-care, but these are symptoms of her ill health, not the motive. Having an argument over her hair is really not worth the outcome. These are things you should let go. Similarly, her being able to have the freedom to access media. Many kids will go on it at odd hours. If that taking that away from her makes her feel like you are treating her like a baby, this will do much more damage than her accessing it late at night and losing a bit of sleep as a result.

I know that it is hard to remove yourself from the situation and seeing it with un-evolved eyes. Would you consider going to a counsellor too? I think you probably both thought that once your wife was finally at the end of her misery, you would be able to turn the page and despite the grief be able to move on yet you are experiencing that it is not the case. You both need to get through that next challenge so that you can finally start moving on without so much pain over your shoulder and you can than start to come closer together. I wish you all the luck that this time comes soon.

krlyr

One thing that stuck out to me is that you've assumed it is the couple who have turned your daughter against you and hold a lot of anger towards them. Given that you mention her previous dishonest behaviour, consider that she may well have told them stories about you that have led to their extreme reaction. This may explain why they have no desire to sit down and chat with you, and their hurry to remove your daughter from her home.

Yes, they may have manipulated a vunerable young girl, but equally, it could be her as a young adult manipulating others for her own gain.

Flyonthewall

I understand it must be difficult but you have no idea how much your daughter has seen this couple or what she's said to them. If they've been listening to her saying for years that she feels she's being abused at home and isn't happy and that she's tried to resolve it they may have just felt like that was the final straw and rather than her being on the streets have been kind enough to offer her a place to stay.

From their point of view you could be the bad guy and they don't know you, they just want to help your daughter who they see as defenseless and in trouble.

Problem is, you just don't know! They may not be nice people or they could just be a couple who have been misled by your daughter.

However, confronting them or vandalising their property is not the answer so whatever you do, don't go down that road. Especially as writing that could also ruin their lives which isn't fair on them if they are innocent in all this.

The police know of them now. Just monitor the situation and keep an eye on your daughter the best you can. If anything else happens you can call the police again.

good_advice

Dug, you are doing a good job. The best you can.
Difficult teens is something most of us have to go through.
It is hard and emotionally, upsetting sometimes.

Soon you will get to the stage where you give your helpful advice and it is up to them to go with it or not.
Yes, it is upsetting watching them fall.
It is part of growing up and becoming adults.

ViolaLass

I agree with the other posters, you have no idea what your daughter has told these people. Is stopping her working there a good idea - you said yourself that it had positive side effects, gets her out of the house, means she earns money etc.

And leave her hair be. At 17(?), she can decide that for herself. And if she doesn't want to cut it, are you really going to hold her down and do it yourself? What would that achieve?

BritishBibliophile

From reading your post, it sounds like your daughter has been put through a lot for someone so young. You said she was 11 when your wife was diagnosed. That means that she spent her earliest teenage years, the time when a girl really needs her Mum, waiting for the person that was meant to be guiding her through that stage, to die. Now she's 16 and it reads as if you're alternating between treating her like the 11 year old she was, and the 21 year old her brother is and you wish she could be.

You complain that she would steal money from her Mum, be nasty to her, and refuse to sit with her when you went out. It sounds like she was after attention, any attention at all, it didn't matter whether it was good or bad, she just wanted you to notice her. As primary carer of course you were focused on your wife, but your daughter wanted to be noticed too. Being a good girl didn't get her anywhere, because it made things a bit easier for you and meant you focused on the wife even more. Therefore by acting out and being bad, even if it meant you were telling her off, it meant that you were at least focusing on her for a few minutes. Likewise you complain that she stole from your wife, right in front of her. She wanted her Mum to see her, to recognise what she was doing, to get a response out of her. Your wife's illness, as you say, left her confused about people, times, dates and the like, but to your daughter she should still have been able to recognise her, because it was her Mum. Mums are superheroes, they can get through anything, and that's what she wanted her Mum to do.

From some of your post, it sounds like you resent your daughter for not coping as well as you think she should have. You say that you feel you should be going out and meeting people, but have to stay in to look after your daughter. She'll be picking up on those underlying feelings, and magnifying them in her head. Dad doesn't want me, Dad wishes I wasn't here, my brother has moved out and Dad wishes I would do the same thing, etc etc. She sounds like she's depressed, in which case she'll be taking those thoughts and beating herself up inside her own head over it. Her brother is oh-so perfect, he has the good exam results, the good job, the good home. But her? She can't do anything right. Of course Dad doesn't want her around.

As for the "motley crew", I'd actually agree with krlyr, she may have been exaggerating things to them. She sounds like she needs a willing ear and a bit of sympathy, if that is what this woman has offered (a woman who was friends with her Mum no less) then she will have snatched at it with both hands, and then realised that if she blows up the truth a bit then she gets even more sympathy. It's back to the old cry for attention again, only this time she doesn't want to be told off, she wants someone to feel sad for her, and acknowledge her feeling that her whole life is currently one big struggle.

What can you do about it? Well, several things;

1. Like FBaby said, pick your battles with her carefully. Does it really matter if she needs a haircut? I doubt it. My Mum consistently tried to get me to do things with my hair when I was 16, I flat out refused, it was my hair and I'd do what I damn well wanted with it. Don't nag at her about every little thing, and try to alternate it with praise for things that she HAS done.

2. If possible, could she stay with her grandparents for a few weeks? I think both of you need a bit of head space, and she might find that once she's with her grandparents, she does actually miss her home and her silly old Dad, and realise that she was a bit daft.

3. Go back to the GP and get some more counselling for her, and for yourself too. You were told that she didn't need it anymore, I'd argue that that's not the case any more. If she can't and won't talk to you, then she needs to talk to a professional.

4. This one is a long shot, but have you considered moving house? That whole building will hold a lot of negative associations for both you and her. It's where your wife and mother died. She'll be looking around it remembering how she stole from her Mum here, or how you yelled to her for something there. Since your son has moved out you could argue that it's time to downsize a little bit. You don't need to move massively far away, and it doesn't need to be immediate. But you could suggest it and see how she feels about it, the idea of a clean break and a new start may appeal to both of you.

Remember, there is no quick fix for this. It's going to take a lot of time and effort and understanding, on your part as well as hers.

Good luck.

dug123

Thank you for your replies.
Firstly my son will not have anything to do with her, she is a major factor to him leaving home. When my wife was here I once had to stop him strangling his sister for being so nasty to his mother so I have made him aware of the situation and I know he will not intervene or talk to his sister.
I often take the grandparents and him and my daughter out for meals in the hope of getting them friendly again but that has not worked so far. I have thought of taking them both on holiday together but I do not think he would come and to be honest I do not think I could cope with being a one man peace keeper 24 7.
She is 16 and I took her to the doctors who referred her for counselling originally but after talking to me they talked to her and said they could not do anything because she did not want to. The doctor said it was like me bringing her in and saying she has a broken leg and then her turning round and saying it isn't broken. They have to take her word over mine and she does not want counselling.
As for them just being a nice couple just bear in mind that this started as soon as my wife died they told my daughter she could live with them (she was 15 and at high school then!).

Mrshaworth2b

I lost my mum at 20, she was ill from when I was 14 and I went off the rails, I saw a lot of damaging things throughout my life and it has scarred me emotionally and probably will for many years to come.

After reading your post I just wanted to say a couple of things and hope you think about them. You've assumed your daughter was angry at your wife for being ill and dying, why would she be angry at your wife, maybe she is angry at the world, at your wife's condition, maybe she's angry that her friends have mum's that are well, there are lots of things that she may have been angry about and I truly think that you need to sit down and hear her, hear what she was or is actually angry with.

Being an outsider, reading your post sounds liked you are exasperated at the events from the last few years, the lack of respect, the lack of help from her. If you intend to hold on to all of this you are going to struggle to move forward with your daughter. I believe your lacking in communication, you said your daughter had councilling, have you also sat and chatted to her and opened up? You all lost someone very special, you will all be grieving, all at different times.

This other woman has obviously listened to your daughter and not come to speak to you about it, most adults would, I question why this is the first time you see her when she's telling you YOUR daughter is moving out. Could you speak to her? Once you have calmed down, it may not be grooming but more misguided actions from what your daughter has said.

Last but not least, sort this now before your daughter up and leaves of her own accord, she's lost one parent, she needs you.

Sorry if any of this offends, I'm just trying to help if I can

dug123

BritishBibliophile wrote: »

From reading your post, it sounds like your daughter has been put through a lot for someone so young. You said she was 11 when your wife was diagnosed. That means that she spent her earliest teenage years, the time when a girl really needs her Mum, waiting for the person that was meant to be guiding her through that stage, to die. Now she's 16 and it reads as if you're alternating between treating her like the 11 year old she was, and the 21 year old her brother is and you wish she could be.

You complain that she would steal money from her Mum, be nasty to her, and refuse to sit with her when you went out. It sounds like she was after attention, any attention at all, it didn't matter whether it was good or bad, she just wanted you to notice her. As primary carer of course you were focused on your wife, but your daughter wanted to be noticed too. Being a good girl didn't get her anywhere, because it made things a bit easier for you and meant you focused on the wife even more. Therefore by acting out and being bad, even if it meant you were telling her off, it meant that you were at least focusing on her for a few minutes. Likewise you complain that she stole from your wife, right in front of her. She wanted her Mum to see her, to recognise what she was doing, to get a response out of her. Your wife's illness, as you say, left her confused about people, times, dates and the like, but to your daughter she should still have been able to recognise her, because it was her Mum. Mums are superheroes, they can get through anything, and that's what she wanted her Mum to do.

From some of your post, it sounds like you resent your daughter for not coping as well as you think she should have. You say that you feel you should be going out and meeting people, but have to stay in to look after your daughter. She'll be picking up on those underlying feelings, and magnifying them in her head. Dad doesn't want me, Dad wishes I wasn't here, my brother has moved out and Dad wishes I would do the same thing, etc etc. She sounds like she's depressed, in which case she'll be taking those thoughts and beating herself up inside her own head over it. Her brother is oh-so perfect, he has the good exam results, the good job, the good home. But her? She can't do anything right. Of course Dad doesn't want her around.

As for the "motley crew", I'd actually agree with krlyr, she may have been exaggerating things to them. She sounds like she needs a willing ear and a bit of sympathy, if that is what this woman has offered (a woman who was friends with her Mum no less) then she will have snatched at it with both hands, and then realised that if she blows up the truth a bit then she gets even more sympathy. It's back to the old cry for attention again, only this time she doesn't want to be told off, she wants someone to feel sad for her, and acknowledge her feeling that her whole life is currently one big struggle.

What can you do about it? Well, several things;

1. Like FBaby said, pick your battles with her carefully. Does it really matter if she needs a haircut? I doubt it. My Mum consistently tried to get me to do things with my hair when I was 16, I flat out refused, it was my hair and I'd do what I damn well wanted with it. Don't nag at her about every little thing, and try to alternate it with praise for things that she HAS done.

2. If possible, could she stay with her grandparents for a few weeks? I think both of you need a bit of head space, and she might find that once she's with her grandparents, she does actually miss her home and her silly old Dad, and realise that she was a bit daft.

3. Go back to the GP and get some more counselling for her, and for yourself too. You were told that she didn't need it anymore, I'd argue that that's not the case any more. If she can't and won't talk to you, then she needs to talk to a professional.

4. This one is a long shot, but have you considered moving house? That whole building will hold a lot of negative associations for both you and her. It's where your wife and mother died. She'll be looking around it remembering how she stole from her Mum here, or how you yelled to her for something there. Since your son has moved out you could argue that it's time to downsize a little bit. You don't need to move massively far away, and it doesn't need to be immediate. But you could suggest it and see how she feels about it, the idea of a clean break and a new start may appeal to both of you.

Remember, there is no quick fix for this. It's going to take a lot of time and effort and understanding, on your part as well as hers.

Good luck.

Wow, thank you very much for the reply, I wish you lived next door.
1) Yes I know I should pick my battles carefully but did not realise that a haircut could be such a major problem.
2) No they have had her for the 4 nights (I have been out 4 times in the past 18 months!) but they have no Xbox or big TV for her to play on all the time and they cope with her in small doses but are in their 70's so a night or 2 is their limit.
3) Tried it as in previous post and cannot make it happen.
4) No I am not moving house, it is a major major upheaval and I have had enough of them. I am afraid I would not consider this, at the end of the day my daughter will not be here for ever and I am happy and comfy here. I would not consider this but it is not for sentimental reasons.