Parking notice from NGP

misterbarlow

We have had a PCN from NGP today.
Our car was parked near a kids play centre in Cardiff.
It was parked alongside a vacant industrial unit which was fenced all around. It turns out there are signs on the fence saying the road alongside the unit is private and managed by this NGP lot.
Its very close to the city centre so they obviously dont want people parking and walking into town.
There is a sign at either end of the fence stating parking tariff applies 24/7 but I cant read the small print on google earth will have to go down there tomorrow.
The driver said they saw the sign but assumed it meant for parking INSIDE the compound not alongside the fence outside so they parked there, they were also told it was ok to park there by the premises they visited, as their car park was full.
They want £100, reduced to £60 if paid in 14days.
Its also a lease car through work which had the PCN first and sent it on to us.
The date on it is 2 April so they must have had it a while, so we only got a few days before this lapses.

Read lots of threads on here saying to ignore totally, but will this work if its not in my name and they keep contacting the lease company, who also charge me £12 admin fee themselves anyway everytime a third party contacts them regarding the car.

enfield_freddy

if the letter was received from NGP , and addressed to you , they have no need to contact the lease company again, or did the lease Co just forward it to you?

misterbarlow

The pcn addressed to lease company was just forwarded on to us by them with a letter advising of their own £12 admin charge for doing so.
They do not have my details yet as far as I know.

enfield_freddy

the lease company are incorrect in doing this , they should have informed NGP that they were the registered owners and named you as the driver (edit : keeper) , you are going to have to "out" yourself and write to NGP.

Redx

the lease company should have told the PPC (NGP) that you are the KEEPER (the hirer) , not the driver (it could have been me driving this hire car) - the RK has no idea who the driver is so cannot "out" the driver

this also absolves them under POFA 2012

then you (as keeper) , use the template letter from the NEWBIES sticky thread to appeal it (as keeper)

you can send the template letter (as KEEPER/HIRER, or LESSEE) to the PPC and that way the PPC should not contact the RK again

but ideally the RK should also do this if they dont want POFA to bite them on the backside at some point in the future (the BVRLA guidance from 15 months ago tells them this)

do not tell them who was driving, just appeal as keeper, which the NEWBIES sticky thread tells you to do at the bottom of post #1

misterbarlow

just re-read the letter from lease company and it says if they get any subsequent letter from them, they will just pay the fine automatically and then reclaim the cost from myself, plus admin fee...
So one way or another I have to either pay or write and dispute asap...

The photo basically has the car parked near the sign..
As I said I haven't seen the small print on the sign yet
The offence on the PCN simply says "parking on roadway".
There was nothing left on it to say we had been charged.
The first we knew of it was today, with two photos of the car parked.

The car park of the place the driver visited was full and the girl on the door said just to park in the road outside.. there were dozens of other cars all along both sides of the street so they just parked with them..

Redx

for a start , its not a fine , its an invoice

if the RK pays it thats their problem and cannot charge you as its not a fine nor a penalty, its an invoice, plus you have the right to appeal it, so should do so asap, direct to the PPC (they would be denying you your right of appeal)

already told you what they should do under POFA 2012

get the template appeal off asap, with a name and address (yours as keeper), dont name the driver

just because there is a sign doesnt make it valid, very few if any private signs are valid in law, they usually break the rules or codes of practice

are you telling me that this New Generation Parking Management Ltd sign meets the BPA CoP on signage in all its entireity ?

you need to learn the rules of this game, and the first one is stop making assumptions and dont use incorrect words like "fine"

you really need to get clued up on this by reading the NEWBIES sticky thread asap

if these are private photos they dont mean a great deal in law (unlike anpr)

misterbarlow

It is a leased salary sacrifice company car paid for via my payroll.
Its in the T&Cs that they can pay any fine and take it from my pay if I don't pay them myself, and they can charge the admin fee.

Yes the photos are taken from ground level by a patrolling employee.

Was reading about them having to justify losses etc.
This is not any kind of car park paid or permit, its some wasteground on the edge of the city centre, with a few abandonded units on one side, and several empty demolished lots on the other, with these signs everywhere.
Looks like they simply bought some cheap unwanted land, slapped up the signs, and sat back waiting for the £££s to roll in from people parking and wandering into town??

For info this is the sign at the far end.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/misterbarlow/6666_zpscclvdq1j.jpg
and this is the one above the car
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/misterbarlow/77777_zpshdduo0yi.jpg

Seeing as this is on wasteground and they do not charge for parking here whatsoever, could I argue they have in effect lost nothing by my parking there?

When I send the template, as its a company car not in my name, do I refer to myself as driver or keeper??

enfield_freddy

worth checking on Monday with your (or the place the incident happened) council to see if this bit of road is actually private , or has been passed over to the council to maintain.

Redx

I have already told you the status of your appeal (the name you do it as and status) - it is quite clear to me from your posts (and many others previously on this forum) that YOU are the KEEPER of the vehicle

I also specifically mentioned not naming the driver

then you (as keeper) , use the template letter from the NEWBIES sticky thread to appeal it (as keeper)

you can send the template letter (as KEEPER/HIRER, or LESSEE) to the PPC and that way the PPC should not contact the RK again

I could not have made it any clearer

the BPA CoP is quite specific on signage too and I doubt these signs comply with it, plus those photos are not actual or real evidence in any court of law, certainly not valid for these purposes as its likely to be a normal handheld camera and have no legal standing

argue whatever you wish, this is a non-regulated industry so you can argue until you are blue in the face but it wont do you any good - the correct way is to follow the advice being given and follow the NEWBIES sticky thread too

read post #24 in here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5194346 , he has more idea on how to deal with these invoices

I have no doubt that your T&C`s allow them to take any fine, except in this case this is not a FINE (nor is it a PENALTY), already told you this earlier. I am not going to debate the semantics of these words or contract with you, suffice to say your firm cannot take money from your pay for an INVOICE and NGP cannot FINE you

it seems to be you are not even taking onboard the replies already given so instead I will try and help other members who are more willing to take onboard what is being given as free advice and to act accordingly because you have already made assumtions and decided on what is correct in this case and didnt take the blinkers off when asking for help here

misterbarlow

ok, ok, I am very grateful for your and everyone else s advice, but any need to get so stroppy and pedantic over a word..?? jees!

fine/invoice/whatever.. you know what I mean, I suppose its a habit a lot of people fall into on here.. during searching and reading other threads, I have read you correcting dozens of others on it also so it obviously happens!!
ok so I know its NOT a fine then, but when a letter comes demanding £100 from you for parking your car, its hard not to refer to it as one...

the T&C of my hire agreement do not mention anything about 'invoices or penalties', it is all under the heading "motoring offences and fines." and says:

"Parking offences
All parking fines or offences should be paid as soon as possible.
Should we receive notification of an unpaid parking fine or offence, it
will, wherever possible be returned to the issuing authority or company
nominating you as the driver. They will then contact you at your home address as provided by us."
The letter they sent the INVOICE on to me with says if this company contacts them again they will pay it and take it back from my payroll.
What you say they cannot do, and what they do, are two different things!!

its their term to use fine, not mine and doesn't differentiate between police/council FINES and private INVOICES!

You could not have made it any clearer??
The reason I keep asking then is because to be honest IMO the newbies sticky thread is quite confusing and full of contradictions..
ie, you say above i am KEEPER and DONT name the driver, but newbie sticky thread says

If you have to appeal as driver (e.g. if yours is a company or hire car)

Well mine is, so its telling me to appeal as the driver despite you telling me to appeal as keeper!!! So which is it?? not made it any less clear!!