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Proof of NCD and rip-off cancellation charges
As usual when my motor insurance came up for renewal I shopped around. The cheapest quote was from Swintons so that's where I took my custom.
As is customary these days they demanded proof of NCD, so on the very day I took out the policy I sent them the renewal notice from my previous insurers.
A few weeks later they wrote saying they hadn't received my proof of NCD. I called them to tell them I'd sent it weeks ago and I couldn't send it again because I no longer had it! They said they would call my previous insurers to check the NCD, but I would need to call them first to authorise them releasing the information. I did so, and they (the previous insurers) were very helpful. "No problem", they said, "we've put a note on your file". They also agreed to forward a copy of the renewal notice, and when I received this a few days later I immediately posted it off to Swintons.
Then I went on holiday, and while I was away a letter arrived from Swintons stating that since they had still received no proof of NCD the policy was cancelled and they would refund the premium less cancellation charges amounting to more the £60.
Naturally I wrote back telling them that I didn't believe that two copies of the Renewal Notice had got lost in the post, and querying why they hadn't contacted my previous insurer as they said they would. I told them I would never darken their door again for any insurance product and demanded the return of the cancellation fees, otherwise I would require a deadlock letter so I could take the matter to the Financial Ombudsman.
They wrote back weeks later saying that they had tried to speak to my previous insurer, who had told them it was their policy not to give such information to other insurers (which, obviously, is not what they told me when I spoke to them, leading me to conclude that Swintons simply hadn't bothered). Nonetheless as a gesture of goodwill they were enclosing a cheque for £50 (doubtless trying to save themselves the £550 fee for an Ombudsman appeal).
But...there was no cheque enclosed. So, I wrote back pointing this out, and also pointing out that £50 was less than the cancellation fees they had charged.
They didn't reply. So many weeks later I wrote a chasing later. Still they didn't reply. So many weeks later again my patience ran out and I sent a Letter Before County Court Claim to their registered address, detailing all their failings in this matter, stating that I held them entirely responsible for the unnecessary cancellation of my policy, and pointing out that I had never agreed to any cancellation charges (indeed I had never agreed to any terms and conditions at all since they never sent me any documents, I was expected to access them through their website, but when I tried to do so the credentials they supplied didn't work).
I also held out again the prospect of them wasting £550 with the Ombudsman by telling them that it was still not too late for ADR if only they would send me a deadlock letter.
About four weeks later I received...a cheque for the full amount I'd demanded including costs.
My conclusions from all this:
1. This relatively-recent expectation that you prove your NCD every time you change insurers is designed to trip people up. A proportion will overlook it, leading to the charging of cancellation fees which far outweigh the profit the company is likely to make from a typical policy. Insurance companies never used to make this demand, relying instead on the not-insignificant fact that if you made a claim they would then check your proposal details, and if you turned out to have been lying you would have no insurance and they would have no liability.
2. You might think (as I did) that simply sending off a renewal notice is a trivial, everyday thing scarcely worthy of your attention. Well I've learned the hard way and in future I will (i) keep a copy of the notice and (ii) take it to the post office and get a proof of posting.
3. Don't let the scumbags brush you off. Be persistent and remember that they desperately want to avoid a referral to the Ombudsman because it will cost them £550, win or lose.
As is customary these days they demanded proof of NCD, so on the very day I took out the policy I sent them the renewal notice from my previous insurers.
A few weeks later they wrote saying they hadn't received my proof of NCD. I called them to tell them I'd sent it weeks ago and I couldn't send it again because I no longer had it! They said they would call my previous insurers to check the NCD, but I would need to call them first to authorise them releasing the information. I did so, and they (the previous insurers) were very helpful. "No problem", they said, "we've put a note on your file". They also agreed to forward a copy of the renewal notice, and when I received this a few days later I immediately posted it off to Swintons.
Then I went on holiday, and while I was away a letter arrived from Swintons stating that since they had still received no proof of NCD the policy was cancelled and they would refund the premium less cancellation charges amounting to more the £60.
Naturally I wrote back telling them that I didn't believe that two copies of the Renewal Notice had got lost in the post, and querying why they hadn't contacted my previous insurer as they said they would. I told them I would never darken their door again for any insurance product and demanded the return of the cancellation fees, otherwise I would require a deadlock letter so I could take the matter to the Financial Ombudsman.
They wrote back weeks later saying that they had tried to speak to my previous insurer, who had told them it was their policy not to give such information to other insurers (which, obviously, is not what they told me when I spoke to them, leading me to conclude that Swintons simply hadn't bothered). Nonetheless as a gesture of goodwill they were enclosing a cheque for £50 (doubtless trying to save themselves the £550 fee for an Ombudsman appeal).
But...there was no cheque enclosed. So, I wrote back pointing this out, and also pointing out that £50 was less than the cancellation fees they had charged.
They didn't reply. So many weeks later I wrote a chasing later. Still they didn't reply. So many weeks later again my patience ran out and I sent a Letter Before County Court Claim to their registered address, detailing all their failings in this matter, stating that I held them entirely responsible for the unnecessary cancellation of my policy, and pointing out that I had never agreed to any cancellation charges (indeed I had never agreed to any terms and conditions at all since they never sent me any documents, I was expected to access them through their website, but when I tried to do so the credentials they supplied didn't work).
I also held out again the prospect of them wasting £550 with the Ombudsman by telling them that it was still not too late for ADR if only they would send me a deadlock letter.
About four weeks later I received...a cheque for the full amount I'd demanded including costs.
My conclusions from all this:
1. This relatively-recent expectation that you prove your NCD every time you change insurers is designed to trip people up. A proportion will overlook it, leading to the charging of cancellation fees which far outweigh the profit the company is likely to make from a typical policy. Insurance companies never used to make this demand, relying instead on the not-insignificant fact that if you made a claim they would then check your proposal details, and if you turned out to have been lying you would have no insurance and they would have no liability.
2. You might think (as I did) that simply sending off a renewal notice is a trivial, everyday thing scarcely worthy of your attention. Well I've learned the hard way and in future I will (i) keep a copy of the notice and (ii) take it to the post office and get a proof of posting.
3. Don't let the scumbags brush you off. Be persistent and remember that they desperately want to avoid a referral to the Ombudsman because it will cost them £550, win or lose.
Je suis Charlie.
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Comments
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I thought you'd have been well aware of 2) baz, especially for the 2nd time sending the proof.
PS - I've heard this about Swintons before.0 -
Yeah you'd think wouldn't you DoaM! Physician heal thyself and all that!Je suis Charlie.0
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To be honest you have missed the big thing.... you now have to answer Yes to the question "have you ever had insurance cancelled?" Have you declared this cancellation to your new insurers?
1) As to this being new? I remember having to do it in the mid 90s so really isnt that new at all. Different companies has often taken different approaches from doing samples, doing 100% at new business, doing it at point of claim or a.n.other. Given you can be talking a 80% discount its not that surprising they want to check you are entitled to it.
2) Yes, or just follow it up with a call rather than assume its all ok.
3) Many insurers are far from desperate to avoid going to the FOS. Some do make an economic decision but certainly in my days of dealing with complaints we wouldnt bow to someone just because they threatened going to the ombudsman. If we believed we made a fair decision then we would stick with it even if it cost us an FOS referral. Of course the promotion of the FOS services, low upheld rate etc all helps the insurer get a reduced fee per case.0 -
InsideInsurance wrote: »To be honest you have missed the big thing.... you now have to answer Yes to the question "have you ever had insurance cancelled?" Have you declared this cancellation to your new insurers?
I didn't miss that at all, and yes I did. With a full licence for nearly 40 years and with no accidents or convictions whatsoever to declare they were totally unconcerned about it.InsideInsurance wrote: »1) As to this being new? I remember having to do it in the mid 90s so really isnt that new at all. Different companies has often taken different approaches from doing samples, doing 100% at new business, doing it at point of claim or a.n.other. Given you can be talking a 80% discount its not that surprising they want to check you are entitled to it.
I don't recall exactly when it started but given the years I've been driving the mid-90's is new to me!
If you lie on your proposal you are not getting an 80% discount, because you are not getting insurance. You are paying 20% of the full premium for absolutely nothing, as you will find out to your (possibly very high) cost if you have an accident.InsideInsurance wrote: »3) Many insurers are far from desperate to avoid going to the FOS. Some do make an economic decision but certainly in my days of dealing with complaints we wouldnt bow to someone just because they threatened going to the ombudsman. If we believed we made a fair decision then we would stick with it even if it cost us an FOS referral. Of course the promotion of the FOS services, low upheld rate etc all helps the insurer get a reduced fee per case.
"Many"? How many have you worked for? Paying £550 to defend, say, £70 (and still possibly losing and having to pay the £70 anyway) sounds like pretty bad business to me.Je suis Charlie.0 -
If you lie on your proposal you are not getting an 80% discount, because you are not getting insurance. You are paying 20% of the full premium for absolutely nothing, as you will find out to your (possibly very high) cost if you have an accident.
"Many"? How many have you worked for? Paying £550 to defend, say, £70 (and still possibly losing and having to pay the £70 anyway) sounds like pretty bad business to me.
But how do they find out you've lied if they dont ask for proof of NCD?
Had to cheat and check my CV, I have worked for 10 insurance groups, all of which had a fair number of insurance legal entities each and all but two had many dozen consumer facing brand names. So if you look at it from a consumer perspective then its probably very close to 1,000. That is looking at those where I've had a direct contract with. I have done work between different companies in the insurance space so arguably you could add those in too but those would be single legal entities rather than groups but again multiple brands each.
For a start the fee the ombudman charges isnt fixed, or at least it wasnt last time I dealt with them. The fee is fixed per legal entity and averages around £550 but some firms get discounts and others have to pay more.
Secondly you are generally not looking at a single complaint but the precedent it sets. If it were the case that it was only ever decided on economics then not a single cancellation fee or administration fee would ever exist as these are all well under the complaint fee and almost without fail people complain about them. Indeed they are by far the highest complaint category outside of claims.0 -
Isn't NCD on the insurers database anyway?0
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Nodding_Donkey wrote: »Isn't NCD on the insurers database anyway?
Nope, a central database for NCD does not exist yet. The MID are planning to introduce one and there is a commercial offering being touted about but there is no all encompassing central NCD database in existence yet.All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.0 -
Nodding_Donkey wrote: »Isn't NCD on the insurers database anyway?
The problem is that there is no database that all insurers subscribe to other than those required by law.
Second problem is that 1 person can have more than 1 NCD and so short of having some form of NCD ID number there is no definitive way to ensure that you'd be looking at the "right" NCD
That said there is a commercial entity thats had a best stab at creating one but doesnt give a definitive yay or nay to the NCD but effectively a confidence factor and the insurer then has to decide if to accept that or ask for proof etc.0 -
there needs to be better guidelines and an independant complaints ombudsmen to deal with people NCB issues. This is a complete swindle by the insurance industry. My brother had serious issues with getting NCB certificate from previous insurer as well. they are a pain in the !!!! - they're not bothered to send you the NCB certificate after they've lost your business and you have to chase this all the time to get it. Meanwhile the new insurer is chasing you for the certificate - the policy is just 3-4 days old. But they're calling you and threatening to cancel your policy until you get the certificate to them.
The authorities need to put more weight behind this. The previous ijnsruer should be legally obligated to process these certificates pronto. Ideally it should go into a database and the new insuer should be able to pick this up easily. They share pretty much all the info on you - apart from NCB because that is a benefit to the policy holder. Typical.0 -
It should made a requirement that an NCD certificate is enclosed with the renewal notice.0
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