uk parking limited / pay my PCN - no observation times

Redx

any pics on street view could be years out of date

I remember in 2013 looking for a gastro pub by a canal and on street view it showed a wasteland at the site, went to this pub and it had been open a couple of years and was all pub , car park and lawned areas with benches

any signage you need to look at is what was there on the day of the incident

Buttermilk181

Redx wrote: »

any pics on street view could be years out of date

I remember in 2013 looking for a gastro pub by a canal and on street view it showed a wasteland at the site, went to this pub and it had been open a couple of years and was all pub , car park and lawned areas with benches

any signage you need to look at is what was there on the day of the incident

Hello,

I do get your point, if I was closer I would definatly check in person.

If using the newer UI for streetview it is actually dated with month and year when the photos were taken, and even allow you to view prior photos if available.

In my case 2 months before, I appreciate technically they could have changed since.

ampersand

bm - especially for cases where the stakes have risen, we ensure any pics are contemporary, seek confirmation that change has/has not taken place.
This is where msers , esp. those helped by these Threads, can give sth back, if they pass or live near a particular infestation blackspot.
#
Its worth checking.

Buttermilk181

ampersand wrote: »

bm - especially for cases where the stakes have risen, we ensure any pics are contemporary, seek confirmation that change has/has not taken place.
This is where msers , esp. those helped by these Threads, can give sth back, if they pass or live near a particular infestation blackspot.
#
Its worth checking.

Okay, I will be near there in future weeks and will be able to check out the signs, is there a thread on the forum where you can upload images for others to look at?

Anyway in terms of the signage from memory what I can see on street view matches when I parked there. Had they been changed since my unfortunate visit would my case still stand if they were incorrect at the time I parked there. Not sure how this could be proved either way.

In terms of the POPLA appeal, in your opinion do you think its up to scratch?

Thanks,

Redx

yes its up to scratch, but give it a few days before submission just to ensure nothing is missed or overlooked

I tend to think that you can allow the signs from your memory and from street view and you dont have a few weeks to get the appeal in , but if you get them before the decision in about 6 weeks time you may use them in your rebuttal of their evidence pack if it becomes necessary

as for uploading here, the answer is a simple NO to that question

the actual question is can I upload them somewhere ? the answer is yes and has been answered thousands of times on here

ie:- upload to photobucket or to tinypic - then use a dead link in your reply to those pics on the site you used

put simply, change the url from http to hxxp, a forum regular will do the rest

once you have enough posts, the forum allows live links so no changes are required , so if you do have the required post number no changes are required

before you ask, no I dont know what that number is, possibly between 20 and 50 ?

Buttermilk181

I have given the letter one last read and made it as perfect as I can please see below, I guess I should get it over and done with and submit today unless anyone can see a major issue. Thanks

POPLA CODE xxxxxxxxxx

As registered keeper of the vehicle, registration number xxxx xxxx, I wish to appeal against the parking charge issued by UK Parking Ltd on the following grounds:

1. No genuine pre-estimate of loss.

2. Lack of Proprietary Interest & non-compliant Contract with Landowner

3. Unclear and non-compliant signage, forming no contract with drivers.

To expand on these points:

1. The Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss:

I do not believe that an unenforceable £60 invoice demonstrates an estimate of likely losses.

The driver of the car paid for a ticket, but allegedly overstayed by 4 minutes, although this can be disputed, given that no times for arrival or departure were entered on the windscreen ticket.

No grace period was accorded, as per BPA guidance:

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News...-grace-periods
The BPA’s guidance defines the ‘grace period’ as the time allowed after permitted or paid-for parking has expired but before any kind of enforcement takes place.

The alleged parking charge must be an estimate of likely losses flowing from the alleged 4-minute breach in order to be potentially enforceable in this case.

Heads of cost such as normal operational costs and tax-deductible back office functions, debt collection, costs in relation to processing of appeals when only a very small percentage of motorists actually appeal as far as POPLA etc. cannot possibly flow as a direct consequence of this parking event.

The Operator would have been in the same position had the parking charge notice not been issued, and would have had many of the same business overheads even if no vehicles breached any terms at all.

2. Lack of Proprietary Interest & non-compliant Contract with Landowner

I put UK Parking Ltd to strict proof that they have a relevant, contemporaneous contract with the landowner that entitles them to pursue these charges in the courts in their own name as creditor.

Further, I require UK Parking Ltd to produce a full contemporaneous, unredacted copy of their agreement with the landowner to confirm (or otherwise) that they had the necessary legal standing to offer parking and pursue charges in their own name at the time of the alleged parking event.

A Witness Statement will not be sufficient.

The BPA Code of Practice (CoP) contains the following:
7 Written authorisation of the landowner
7.1 If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent) before you can start operating on the land in question. The authorisation must give you the authority to carry out all aspects of the management and enforcement of the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner requires you to keep to the Code of Practice, and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges, through the courts if necessary.

3. Non-Compliant Signage, Unclear and Inadequate.

The alleged parking event took place at night in winter: the weather was windy and wet.

Due to the position of signage, the lack of signage frequency, the barely legible size of the small print and minimal lighting the signs and any core parking terms UK Parking Ltd are relying upon are too small for a driver to read and well nigh illegible at night.

The Operator needs to show evidence and signage map/photos on this point - specifically showing the height and lighting of the signs and where they are at the entrance, whether a driver still in a car can see and read them when deciding to drive in. Any terms displayed on the ticket machines or on a ticket itself, do not alter the contract which must be shown in full at the entrance. I believe the signs failed to properly and clearly warn/inform the driver of the terms in this car park as they failed to comply with the BPA Code of Practice appendix B. I require the operator to provide photographic evidence that proves otherwise.

It is the will of Parliament following the EU Consumer Rights Directive that express consent is obtained for consumer contracts (not implied consent) and that information is provided in a durable medium in advance.

Based on the signage in this car park, UK Parking Ltd has failed to meet these requirements.
I request that POPLA check UK Parking Ltd evidence and signage positions/photos on this point and compare the signs to the BPA Code of Practice requirements.

I contend that the signs on this land (wording, position, frequency, clarity) do not comply and fail to properly warn/inform the driver of the terms and any consequences for breach, as in the case of Excel Parking Services Ltd v Martin Cutts, 2011 and Waltham Forest v Vine [CCRTF 98/1290/B2]).

There is no contract between UK Parking Ltd and the driver, but even if there was a contract then it would be unfair as defined in the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. The requirements of forming a contract such as a meeting of minds, agreement, certainty of terms, etc., were not satisfied.

Yours faithfully,

Signed XXXXXXXXX

Buttermilk181

I have given the letter one last read and made it as perfect as I can please see below, I guess I should get it over and done with and submit today unless anyone can see a major issue. Thanks

POPLA CODE xxxxxxxxxx

As registered keeper of the vehicle, registration number xxxx xxxx, I wish to appeal against the parking charge issued by UK Parking Ltd on the following grounds:

1. No genuine pre-estimate of loss.

2. Lack of Proprietary Interest & non-compliant Contract with Landowner

3. Unclear and non-compliant signage, forming no contract with drivers.

To expand on these points:

1. The Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss:

I do not believe that an unenforceable £60 invoice demonstrates an estimate of likely losses.

The driver of the car paid for a ticket, but allegedly overstayed by 4 minutes, although this can be disputed, given that no times for arrival or departure were entered on the windscreen ticket.

No grace period was accorded, as per BPA guidance:

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News...-grace-periods
The BPA’s guidance defines the ‘grace period’ as the time allowed after permitted or paid-for parking has expired but before any kind of enforcement takes place.

The alleged parking charge must be an estimate of likely losses flowing from the alleged 4-minute breach in order to be potentially enforceable in this case.

Heads of cost such as normal operational costs and tax-deductible back office functions, debt collection, costs in relation to processing of appeals when only a very small percentage of motorists actually appeal as far as POPLA etc. cannot possibly flow as a direct consequence of this parking event.

The Operator would have been in the same position had the parking charge notice not been issued, and would have had many of the same business overheads even if no vehicles breached any terms at all.

2. Lack of Proprietary Interest & non-compliant Contract with Landowner

I put UK Parking Ltd to strict proof that they have a relevant, contemporaneous contract with the landowner that entitles them to pursue these charges in the courts in their own name as creditor.

Further, I require UK Parking Ltd to produce a full contemporaneous, unredacted copy of their agreement with the landowner to confirm (or otherwise) that they had the necessary legal standing to offer parking and pursue charges in their own name at the time of the alleged parking event.

A Witness Statement will not be sufficient.

The BPA Code of Practice (CoP) contains the following:
7 Written authorisation of the landowner
7.1 If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent) before you can start operating on the land in question. The authorisation must give you the authority to carry out all aspects of the management and enforcement of the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner requires you to keep to the Code of Practice, and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges, through the courts if necessary.

3. Non-Compliant Signage, Unclear and Inadequate.

The alleged parking event took place at night in winter: the weather was windy and wet.

Due to the position of signage, the lack of signage frequency, the barely legible size of the small print and minimal lighting the signs and any core parking terms UK Parking Ltd are relying upon are too small for a driver to read and well nigh illegible at night.

The Operator needs to show evidence and signage map/photos on this point - specifically showing the height and lighting of the signs and where they are at the entrance, whether a driver still in a car can see and read them when deciding to drive in. Any terms displayed on the ticket machines or on a ticket itself, do not alter the contract which must be shown in full at the entrance. I believe the signs failed to properly and clearly warn/inform the driver of the terms in this car park as they failed to comply with the BPA Code of Practice appendix B. I require the operator to provide photographic evidence that proves otherwise.

It is the will of Parliament following the EU Consumer Rights Directive that express consent is obtained for consumer contracts (not implied consent) and that information is provided in a durable medium in advance.

Based on the signage in this car park, UK Parking Ltd has failed to meet these requirements.
I request that POPLA check UK Parking Ltd evidence and signage positions/photos on this point and compare the signs to the BPA Code of Practice requirements.

I contend that the signs on this land (wording, position, frequency, clarity) do not comply and fail to properly warn/inform the driver of the terms and any consequences for breach, as in the case of Excel Parking Services Ltd v Martin Cutts, 2011 and Waltham Forest v Vine [CCRTF 98/1290/B2]).

There is no contract between UK Parking Ltd and the driver, but even if there was a contract then it would be unfair as defined in the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. The requirements of forming a contract such as a meeting of minds, agreement, certainty of terms, etc., were not satisfied.

Yours faithfully,

Signed XXXXXXXXX

Redx

looks fine to me, so if no further comments are made then send it with proof of posting or attach it to an online appeal on their site

good luck

ampersand

Hello bm - just in.

2 observations:

- 'the weather was windy and wet.' One mser's ott is another's thoroughness: I'd happily include confirming ref. from bbc weather or similar, if I could. You are helping assessor, demonstrating thoughtful clarity.

- ' I require the operator to provide contemporaneous photographic evidence that proves otherwise.'
-I'd insert bold word, only because scumpanies often provide fairyland foties of non-existent/redundant/elsewhere signage and layout. Parking Prankster has some great examples of this.
#

Just a reminder not to feel poleaxed by the felled forest of guff that comes back from scumpany, IF things stagger on that far....je m'en doute:-)

Looks tight, well written and set out. You've worked really well and persisted with this.
Good luck! Keep us updated.

Buttermilk181

ampersand wrote: »

Hello bm - just in.

2 observations:

- 'the weather was windy and wet.' One mser's ott is another's thoroughness: I'd happily include confirming ref. from bbc weather or similar, if I could. You are helping assessor, demonstrating thoughtful clarity.

- ' I require the operator to provide contemporaneous photographic evidence that proves otherwise.'
-I'd insert bold word, only because scumpanies often provide fairyland foties of non-existent/redundant/elsewhere signage and layout. Parking Prankster has some great examples of this.
#

Just a reminder not to feel poleaxed by the felled forest of guff that comes back from scumpany, IF things stagger on that far....je m'en doute:-)

Looks tight, well written and set out. You've worked really well and persisted with this.
Good luck! Keep us updated.

Final changes made and appeal submitted, everyone above, thanks for your continued support.

What is a typical time frame to hear back from a POPLA appeal?

Will update here when I hear further news....