uk parking limited / pay my PCN - no observation times

ManxRed

jord_turansky wrote: »

Dear POPLA,

I am the registered keeper & this is my appeal:

1) The Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss:
I do not believe that the £60 fine demonstrates an estimate of likely losses. The driver of the car paid for a ticket, and merely overstayed by a matter of minutes. This Operator cannot demonstrate any initial quantifiable loss. The parking charge must be an estimate of likely losses flowing from the alleged breach in order to be potentially enforceable. Where there is an initial loss directly caused by the presence of a vehicle in breach of the conditions (e.g. loss of revenue from failure to pay a tariff) this loss will be obvious. An initial loss is fundamental to a parking charge and, without it, costs incurred by issuing the parking charge notice cannot be said to have been caused by the driver's alleged breach. Heads of cost such as normal operational costs and tax-deductible back office functions, debt collection, etc. cannot possibly flow as a direct consequence of this parking event. The Operator would have been in the same position had the parking charge notice not been issued, and would have had many of the same business overheads even if no vehicles breached any terms at all.

2) Authority to issue tickets:
Does the parking company have clear authorisation from the landowner to issues tickets on their land and peruse charges in their own name? If the answer to this is yes then please can I be provided with unredacted contact held with the landowner to prove this.

In point one, there is an initial loss, albeit small, of another unit of parking. So half an hour's more P&D, plus admin charges in chasing it up, so their actual loss is probably about £5. It ISN'T £100.

Try:

1) The Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss:
I do not believe that the £60 fine demonstrates an estimate of likely losses. The driver of the car paid for a ticket, and merely overstayed by a matter of minutes. The parking charge must be an estimate of likely losses flowing from the alleged breach in order to be potentially enforceable.

Heads of cost such as normal operational costs and tax-deductible back office functions, debt collection, costs in relation to processing of appeals when only a very small percentage of motorists actually appeal as far as POPLA etc. cannot possibly flow as a direct consequence of this parking event. The Operator would have been in the same position had the parking charge notice not been issued, and would have had many of the same business overheads even if no vehicles breached any terms at all.

For point 2:

(2) Lack of Proprietary Interest & non-compliant Contract with Landowner

UK Parking Ltd's lack of title or assigned interest in this land means they have no legal standing to allege trespass or loss, if that is the basis of their charge. Nor do they have the legal status at that site, which would give them any right to offer parking spaces on a contractual basis, as they are not the landowner and I have seen no evidence of a compliant contract with the landowner.

I put UK Parking Ltd to strict proof that they have a relevant, contemporaneous contract with the landowner that entitles them to pursue these charges in the courts in their own name as creditor.

The BPA Code of Practice (CoP) contains the following:

7 Written authorisation of the landowner

7.1 If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent) before you can start operating on the land in question. The authorisation must give you the authority to carry out all aspects of the management and enforcement of the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner requires you to keep to the Code of Practice, and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges, through the courts if necessary.

I require UK Parking Ltd to produce a full unredacted copy of their agreement with the landowner to confirm (or otherwise) that they have the necessary legal standing to offer parking and pursue charges in their own name. A Witness Statement will not be sufficient.

bod1467

Who are UK Parking Ltd? Do you mean UK Parking Control Ltd? (UKPC). (You need to make sure such details are correct).

ManxRed

Good point, I've taken the OP's word for it in post #1, but the OP needs to amend if the PPC actually has a different name.

ampersand

j-t . welcome to mse.

Hope you are not using your given name here - looks rather like it. Remove it from post and change i.d.

If nothing else, do not call your unenforceable invoice a 'fine' - that's engraved across forehead of everyone who comes here:-)

Cardinal error The Second[again said with smile] - NEVER EVER call the scumpanies or their so-called agents.
'So I called up' and 'so a few calls later ' - #1.

You are taking their call to this Special Trough Fund Investment Opportunity far too seriously.

Until we see proof to contrary, your parking event - 'timeless' could indeed be useful:-) - is no different from thousands of others, kicked into touch with sensible reading, absorption, and a couple of letters following the tried and tested templates here, tweaked for your circs. Depends on the Operator - basic nut and bolt info., not a saga, please.

Could be they have a couple of anpr pics hidden in their trousers. Rebuttals for that here, too.

Buttermilk181

ManxRed wrote: »

In point one, there is an initial loss, albeit small, of another unit of parking. So half an hour's more P&D, plus admin charges in chasing it up, so their actual loss is probably about £5. It ISN'T £100.

Try:



For point 2:

Okay thank you very much I will make those changes

Buttermilk181

bod1467 wrote: »

Who are UK Parking Ltd? Do you mean UK Parking Control Ltd? (UKPC). (You need to make sure such details are correct).

To be honest the ticket is very confusing, it has the following what I presume to be company names / websites.

UK Parking limited
PCN parking services
and the website given is www(dot)paymypcn(dot)net

On one of the other letters they have sent me the name PCN parking solutions is also mentioned. Where are all these different company names coming from?!?

Buttermilk181

ampersand wrote: »

j-t . welcome to mse.

Hope you are not using your given name here - looks rather like it. Remove it from post and change i.d.

If nothing else, do not call your unenforceable invoice a 'fine' - that's engraved across forehead of everyone who comes here:-)

Cardinal error The Second[again said with smile] - NEVER EVER call the scumpanies or their so-called agents.
'So I called up' and 'so a few calls later ' - #1.

You are taking their call to this Special Trough Fund Investment Opportunity far too seriously.

Until we see proof to contrary, your parking event - 'timeless' could indeed be useful:-) - is no different from thousands of others, kicked into touch with sensible reading, absorption, and a couple of letters following the tried and tested templates here, tweaked for your circs. Depends on the Operator - basic nut and bolt info., not a saga, please.

Could be they have a couple of anpr pics hidden in their trousers. Rebuttals for that here, too.

Hi, thanks for the heads up, much appreciated.

In terms of calling them, I felt I had to, as when I appealed, they said I hadn't and then increased the charge to £100.

When I re sent the appeal, they didn't 'notice' the second appeal and forwarded me on to debt collection agency demanding £160. Not sure how I would have sorted this without calling up.

ampersand

You would have sorted it out with comprehensive reading of the newbies stickies, full-on complaints through flowchart and insistence on timely substantive replies - and still can.

REPEAT - NEVER EVER CALL THEM - UNDERSTOOD?

'I felt I had to, as when I appealed, they said I hadn't and then increased the charge to £100.' - we'd certainly like to see wording which confirms this.
What? - that you hadn't called them?

Didn't you obtain a free COP from PO, or a screen shot? [you know to now:-)]

I charge £100 per advice post to you here:-), rising to £150 if you fail to accept my generous early settlement terms....yes, thought you would.

Now - company info. months old:
https://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/parking_review/news/?id=39526

-sameoldsameold:-))).

No-one will be remotely surprised by: 'When I re sent the appeal, they didn't 'notice' the second appeal and forwarded me on to debt collection agency demanding £160. '
Check out pepipoo here:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=95253

ampersand

Smart alter ego work, :-), but #1 and #7- delete that name:-)

Buttermilk181

ampersand wrote: »

You would have sorted it out with comprehensive reading of the newbies stickies, full-on complaints through flowchart and insistence on timely substantive replies - and still can.

REPEAT - NEVER EVER CALL THEM - UNDERSTOOD?

'I felt I had to, as when I appealed, they said I hadn't and then increased the charge to £100.' - we'd certainly like to see wording which confirms this.
What? - that you hadn't called them?

Didn't you obtain a free COP from PO, or a screen shot? [you know to now:-)]

I charge £100 per advice post to you here:-), rising to £150 if you fail to accept my generous early settlement terms....yes, thought you would.

Now - company info. months old:


-sameoldsameold:-))).

No-one will be remotely surprised by: 'When I re sent the appeal, they didn't 'notice' the second appeal and forwarded me on to debt collection agency demanding £160. '
Check out pepipoo here:

Hello Ampersand,

Unfortunately I wrote my initial appeal letter and had it rejected all before I ever found this forum.

The way I came across it was when I was told to contact POPLA, having no idea what this was I started to google and this website popped up.

You used terms such as 'COP' and 'PO', is there a section on the forum where all abbreviations are listed, I've had a look but cant find a section for parking abbreviations.

Dont worry, I will pay you your very 'fair' and 'representative' fees. Just give me your paypal

In terms of the link you provided are you recommending I should submit the same letter they did seeing as its the same company.

And would you mind expanding a little on your last point, no one is surprised by.....

Is that a common tactic these companies use, what's the benefit to them etc?

Thanks again...