uk parking limited / pay my PCN - no observation times

Buttermilk181

Hello,

I am new to this whole fighting parking tickets thing and have been reading loads of details on this website, first of all ive got to say its amazing there are so many people willing to help each other

I have had an extremely bad experience with the ticket company, before I found this website I wrote an appeal letter with a legal minded friend and sent it in.

2 weeks later I got a letter demanding to pay £100 because i 'had not' appealed, which I had. So I called up and was asked to re send with proof of initial appeal. Which I did.

Next I received a letter asking for £160 from a debt collection agency because I 'had not' appealed. Which again I had, so a few calls later I had that canceled and I am back to the initial company with a £60 fine. Unfortunately I don't think that will help me fight my case, just proves how bad some of these private car park companies are.

Now on to how I may be able to fight this. I got back to my car, from memory 4 minutes late. On the ticket (which I shall upload and share a link so you guys can look, there are fields for observation times, from and till. These are blank, does this give me a leg to stand on in terms of fighting it?

Many thanks for your help,



Link to PCN:

{edit} I have just tried to share a link but as a new user I cannot, please can someone advise? Or if you give me your email I will happily send you the 2MB photo I intended to upload.

rdr

Read the stickies

Buttermilk181

rdr wrote: »

Read the stickies

hello, I tried to digest as much information as possible but couldn't find a relevant section regarding observation times.

Did you mean there is a specific stickie I should read?

Thanks

ManxRed

There's one at the top of this forum titled NEWBIES!!

Buttermilk181

ManxRed wrote: »

There's one at the top of this forum titled NEWBIES!!

ManxRed wrote: »

There's one at the top of this forum titled NEWBIES!!

Hello,

Yes the NEWBIES!! thread is what I started reading with first, as my first appeal has been declined I now have to appeal to POPLA, so I have gone to the POPLA decisions thread to try to learn.

I have searched for observation times and it didn't find any relevant results so I thought I would ask here next.

Is this not the correct way to use the forum?

Thanks,

ManxRed

On the observations thing, it's largely irrelevant here.

The points you should be arguing this on, which are in the NEWBIES thread are:

1. The charge they are asking for (£100) does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss to the landowner or the parking firm. No one has lost £100 as a result of you staying 4 minutes late.
2. The parking company is unlikely to have the necessary legal standing on the land to offer parking and pursue charges in their own name. If they claim otherwise then you want to see proof in the form of an unredacted contract they hold with the landowner.

What were the signs like? Clearly worded? Prominently displayed? Do they or the paperwork mention in what capacity the charge has been levied (breach of terms and conditions, contractual charge, trespass?). This will also be relevant to your appeal.

Buttermilk181

ManxRed wrote: »

On the observations thing, it's largely irrelevant here.

The points you should be arguing this on, which are in the NEWBIES thread are:

1. The charge they are asking for (£100) does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss to the landowner or the parking firm. No one has lost £100 as a result of you staying 4 minutes late.
2. The parking company is unlikely to have the necessary legal standing on the land to offer parking and pursue charges in their own name. If they claim otherwise then you want to see proof in the form of an unredacted contract they hold with the landowner.

What were the signs like? Clearly worded? Prominently displayed? Do they or the paperwork mention in what capacity the charge has been levied (breach of terms and conditions, contractual charge, trespass?). This will also be relevant to your appeal.

Ah okay thanks very much for your reply, I guess I was barking up the wrong tree. I thought the incomplete car parking ticket may be a sure fire way to appeal as I did read somewhere that an incomplete ticket is invalid?

I will draft up a letter using the guidance on the POPLA area of the forum. Once I have drafted is there a section I could post the letter so that someone with much more expertise could check I haven't made any crucial errors?

The reason why I ask is because the ticket currently sits at £60, and states, if I appeal to POPLA and it isn't accepted I lose the right to pay £60 and have to pay £100.

Thanks again.

ManxRed

Incomplete tickets can invalidate COUNCIL tickets, but private tickets are just a piece of paper and can say pretty much what it wants.

Yes, you can post a draft of your POPLA appeal up here for fine tuning before sending.

Don't worry about the £60 - £100 thing, you'll be paying the special MSE rate of £0.

pogofish

jord_turansky wrote: »

hello, I tried to digest as much information as possible but couldn't find a relevant section regarding observation times.

Did you mean there is a specific stickie I should read?

Thanks

Post one of the Newbies Sticky deals with this completely!

Buttermilk181

ManxRed wrote: »

Incomplete tickets can invalidate COUNCIL tickets, but private tickets are just a piece of paper and can say pretty much what it wants.

Yes, you can post a draft of your POPLA appeal up here for fine tuning before sending.

Don't worry about the £60 - £100 thing, you'll be paying the special MSE rate of £0.

Okay thanks very much for clearing the difference between council and private tickets. The MSE rate sounds very good (that cracked me up). I have drawn up the letter below, some parts taken from other users on this site. However I feel it is a bit short, I would like to known your opinion on it.

Other than my POPLA number and sign as the registered keeper should I add anything else or can you advise any other changes in order to strengthen my appeal. Thanks very much, please see my letter below.

________________________________________________________

Dear POPLA,

I am the registered keeper & this is my appeal:

1) The Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss:
I do not believe that the £60 fine demonstrates an estimate of likely losses. The driver of the car paid for a ticket, and merely overstayed by a matter of minutes. This Operator cannot demonstrate any initial quantifiable loss. The parking charge must be an estimate of likely losses flowing from the alleged breach in order to be potentially enforceable. Where there is an initial loss directly caused by the presence of a vehicle in breach of the conditions (e.g. loss of revenue from failure to pay a tariff) this loss will be obvious. An initial loss is fundamental to a parking charge and, without it, costs incurred by issuing the parking charge notice cannot be said to have been caused by the driver's alleged breach. Heads of cost such as normal operational costs and tax-deductible back office functions, debt collection, etc. cannot possibly flow as a direct consequence of this parking event. The Operator would have been in the same position had the parking charge notice not been issued, and would have had many of the same business overheads even if no vehicles breached any terms at all.

2) Authority to issue tickets:
Does the parking company have clear authorisation from the landowner to issues tickets on their land and peruse charges in their own name? If the answer to this is yes then please can I be provided with unredacted contact held with the landowner to prove this.

Buttermilk181

ManxRed wrote: »

Incomplete tickets can invalidate COUNCIL tickets, but private tickets are just a piece of paper and can say pretty much what it wants.

Yes, you can post a draft of your POPLA appeal up here for fine tuning before sending.

Don't worry about the £60 - £100 thing, you'll be paying the special MSE rate of £0.

Hi ManxRed, was just wondering what you thought of the above letter.

Thanks,