Suddenly got terrifying legal letters re: train penalty fare!
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Yes, my understanding is that a true Penalty Fare is just a higher fare that is issued when the issuer believes that the traveller has made a genuine mistake. This is a civil debt recoverable via a county court.
If the ticket inspector believes that the traveller has deliberately tried to avoid paying a fare, then prosecution in a criminal court is more likely.
Now, in the first case, the civil debt, if that remains unpaid the train company will cancel it and instead consider prosecution via the criminal courts.
So effectively you have the option of bribing the railway company not to prosecute you, and if you won't pay the bribe, they will. Nice that the courts are happy to collude with them.
As I said before, wouldn't it have just been easier to bribe the ticket inspector with £20 to look the other way.0 -
So effectively you have the option of bribing the railway company not to prosecute you, and if you won't pay the bribe, they will. Nice that the courts are happy to collude with them.
You do realise that is essentially what a Fixed Penalty Notice is? Not just for railway offences, you were speeding? Pay £100 (and get 3 points) and it all goes away, don't pay and end up in court paying £500+ for the same offence (and still get the 3 points).
Parliament decided paying to avoid a prosecution is legal, therefore it isn't a bribe.====0 -
Rums Tum. Just checked my Buck of Face. Nope, the hard hitting social media campaign has not risen upon my daft feeds this day!0
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You do realise that is essentially what a Fixed Penalty Notice is? Not just for railway offences, you were speeding? Pay £100 (and get 3 points) and it all goes away, don't pay and end up in court paying £500+ for the same offence (and still get the 3 points).
Parliament decided paying to avoid a prosecution is legal, therefore it isn't a bribe.
The 'Fixed Penalty Notices' you mention have the backing of legislation.
Railway Penalty Fares enjoy no such luxury. They are simply a mechanism dreamt up by the railway companies.
Have you ever seen 'the railway' take a passenger to court over a Penalty Fare? The legal status of the Penalty Fare is dubious, and 'the railway' will not risk a civil case going to court.0 -
The 'Fixed Penalty Notices' you mention have the backing of legislation.
Railway Penalty Fares enjoy no such luxury. They are simply a mechanism dreamt up by the railway companies.
If by "dreamt up by railway companies" you actually mean were made by Statutory Instrument under sec 219 of the Transport Act 2000 I suppose you might be right. And if by "railway companies" you actually mean Parliament, yes, definitely right.Have you ever seen 'the railway' take a passenger to court over a Penalty Fare? The legal status of the Penalty Fare is dubious, and 'the railway' will not risk a civil case going to court.
Yes, it's actually quite common for the TOCs to take fare evaders who refuse to pay to court, it's a fairly expensive morning for the offender.====0 -
If by "dreamt up by railway companies" you actually mean were made by Statutory Instrument under sec 219 of the Transport Act 2000 I suppose you might be right. And if by "railway companies" you actually mean Parliament, yes, definitely right.Now they're saying I owe £106.50.
So are you suggesting that the £106.50 the OP was asked for was demanded under s219, because it doesn't look like it to me.
It seems much more akin to the train company blackmailing the OP to pay a bribe "Give us this randomly made up amount of £106.50 or you will regret it".Yes, it's actually quite common for the TOCs to take fare evaders who refuse to pay to court, it's a fairly expensive morning for the offender.
So why doesn't the train company take the person that has committed a crime to court?
Simple, they get more money if they pay the train company a bribe.0 -
So are you suggesting that the £106.50 the OP was asked for was demanded under s219, because it doesn't look like it to me.
It seems much more akin to the train company blackmailing the OP to pay a bribe "Give us this randomly made up amount of £106.50 or you will regret it".
Yes, they are, look in the middle of the letter, some TOCs have statutory authority from older versions of the Bylaws, look at the line starting "contrary to sec 5.3.a of Regulation of Railway Act 1889 as amended..."
They will, if the OP fails to pay the fine.
So why doesn't the train company take the person that has committed a crime to court?Simple, they get more money if they pay the train company a bribe.
As I said, just like speeding, the offender gets off with a cheaper penalty by not defending the matter in court.
Are you sure you aren't confusing Railway Bylaws with private parking penalties?====0 -
Is this another one of those situation where if the OP pays a Penalty Fare, the Rail Company gets the money. But if the OP is taken to Court and pays a fine, the State gets the money and doesn't give it to the Train Company?
edit: The very first item in the Railway Bye-laws is about queuing. :eek:
Like the British ever need to be told to queue?
Won't someone save us from this monstrous bureaucracy!0 -
Yes, they are, look in the middle of the letter, some TOCs have statutory authority from older versions of the Bylaws, look at the line starting "contrary to sec 5.3.a of Regulation of Railway Act 1889 as amended..."Yes, they are, look in the middle of the letter, some TOCs have statutory authority from older versions of the Bylaws, look at the line starting "contrary to sec 5.3.a of Regulation of Railway Act 1889 as amended..."
s5.3.a of Regulation of Railway Act 1889 as amended -
If any person—
(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;
...
he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale, or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, either to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale, or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.
Nothing in there to say that the train company can demand arbitrary amounts, which it can put in its pocket.
It simply says that if you don't have a ticket you have committed a crime that the courts should punish. The train companies by demanding arbitrary amounts which parliament has not approved in exchange for not prosecuting, is no better than a corrupt police officer taking money to look the other way.They will, if the OP fails to pay the fine.
It is not a 'fine' but a bribe, as it has no legal basis.As I said, just like speeding, the offender gets off with a cheaper penalty by not defending the matter in court.
Except parliament set in place laws for fixed penalty charges, unlike the bribes the train companies are demanding with menaces.
The train companies are acting like the corrupt police officer who is prepared to look the other way for a few quid, so the speeding motorist gets off cheaper by not defending the matter in court.Are you sure you aren't confusing Railway Bylaws with private parking penalties?
The arbitrary charges are not based on the Railway Bylaws.Cornucopia wrote: »Is this another one of those situation where if the OP pays a Penalty Fare, the Rail Company gets the money. But if the OP is taken to Court and pays a fine, the State gets the money and doesn't give it to the Train Company?
Penalty fares are based on law.
What the OP is being asked to pay is not a penalty fare, but an arbitrary amount that has no basis in law, just an amount to boost shareholder profits.0
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