Suddenly got terrifying legal letters re: train penalty fare!

DCFC79

Glasseye wrote: »

I really appreciate those who have replied who genuinely approached their keyboard worth fingers looking to help me, rather than have a go at me.

Would people here feel differently about this situation if it was discovered that train companies could have used a different discount system for tickets, in which this didn't happen? I bet every one of us here use (or have used) a discount CODE, rather than inventing a piece of plastic which we can get fined and arrested for not carrying everywhere with us when we travel.

How much do the companies make from penalty fares each year? From people who had already paid the correct amount but just forgot (or even lost/had stolen their Railcard?) This doesn't have to be so complicated and aggressive. I feel like its a trap and I don't eel like others are exploring this idea.

You feel so strongly about it so start a campaign like you said.

Other people manage to take the rail card with them, why not just pay up and chalk it up to experience.

I'm a firm believer in taking responsibility for your own actions.

Glasseye

Thanks for your post. I'm passionate about living in a society in which everyone has an opportunity to help create the rules that govern them. I am so glad we have trains. I want to help keep them running. I don't need to be punished because I've not caused a problem. A problem was created by a train company and a legal Austen because they didn't know how better to deal with the situation. I will spend a lot of my life working to create ways for people who are subject to rules to have real opportunities to help create them. I know this works because I know why I respect shared resources like trains, and why many don't. I've devoted myself to exploring self-governing communities. There is always so much left to learn, but along the way, I won't accept falling prey to needless bad design. For me in situations like this it is oppressive and yes I question rules with no hesitation, it's how I live. It ultimately works toward what I'm able to contribute. Yes, I'll let you know how it goes! Thanks again

Dr._Shoe wrote: »

Welcome to the real world Glasseye. I can accept that you accidently left your railcard at home but I have some serious misgivings about how you've handled the aftermath and how you've handled yourself.

When I make a mistake, just like you have, there are only three people I can turn to for help: me, myself and I. I cannot give my mother's address because as soon as I say that it's xxxx care home they'd get suspicious. I am single (currently) so have no husband nor boyfriend to sort things out for me.

If this had been me, I would have put my hands up and paid the excess charge/penalty fare there and the and apologised for the trouble. This isn't because I'm a nice person but it is because fare evasion is a criminal offence. I am in my 50s now and over the years I have learnt that in cases such as this where you are in the wrong it is best to put your hand up to it because not doing so is worse.

I have no love for officialdom or any corporate entity that can [or thinks it can] impose a penalty or fine but it doesn't matter what the circumstances are in this case, you are clearly in the wrong. Whether you made a deliberate attempt to defraud the railway company (which is doubtful if, as you say, you have a railcard) or whether you honestly left your card at home, you are banged to rights I'm afraid.

As everyone else has said, you should pay the £53 as a full and final settlement and put it down to experience. You may be asked to pay the other £53.50 too. If so, you should pay that as well. If you go to court they will chuck the book at you. Not because you dodged a fare but because you didn't show any remorse for it, had you done so you would have paid the penalty fare as soon as you could after the offence. The fact that you're talking about making it a campaign is further evidence that you don't consider yourself to be in the wrong.

High Court Judges, Magistrates and Justices Of The Peace take three points into account: The degree of the offence(s), a timely guilty plea and the degree of remorse. In this case, assuming a first time offence, the degree of offence is low. it isn't the amount of the ticket it's the number of the offences and the pesistance of the offender in offending. If you had put your hands up and gone to the penalty fare counter with a sheepish smile and paid it then that's a timely guilty plea, In your case the level is very high as you still don't believe that you're in the wrong. This is why defendants entering a not guilty plea get heavier penalties on conviction. The fact that you are (or were) planning a campaign proves no remorse whatsoever which will also attract a more severe penalty.

If judges attach the same importance to the three points of justice as outlined above, you will be looking at £100 or so for the offence, £300 or so for not entering a guilty plea soon enough and another £330 for not having remorse. However, different judges apply the law differently so this is not by any means a prediction.

Robin9

OP ...... don't forget to give them your new address.

benjus

Glasseye wrote: »

I'm passionate about living in a society in which everyone has an opportunity to help create the rules that govern them. I am so glad we have trains. I want to help keep them running. I don't need to be punished because I've not caused a problem.

I think that most people, in this country at least, want people that do things by the rules to be defended. You broke a rule by travelling without your railcard. Unintentional I know, but you still broke the rule. If ticket inspectors start allowing people that cannot produce their railcards to get away with it, they open a loophole for less scrupulous people to intentionally travel without a railcard but still claim the discount - for example by lending their railcard to a friend while travelling without it, so two people get the discount at the same time. Why do you think this rule is unfair?

Blackbeard_of_Perranporth

Glasseye wrote: »

I'm going to let you take a moment to think about what you're saying to someone you've never met, let alone the people who I might support who would be without help if I was locked up.

One does not become a martyr, because of a week in jail, however much OP is thinking about it!



BoP now gives his advice.

Ignorance of the Law will not bode well in front of the beak.

Glasseye wrote: »

Unless you guys can convince me otherwise very soon, I'll be resisting payment and making a campaign out of this which I intend to go national.
I'll spend the best part of a month getting people involved because it's not fair, and I don't care about rules as much as I care about what's fair. That's how I work, not sure about you?

My Buck of Face has yet to see the charms of this social media campaign.

Reece_

Your outlook upon life is somewhat admiral, however in this regard is also rather naive and nonsensical , yes it seems an honest mistake on your behalf but perhaps now you'll think to check you have your railcard BEFORE leaving to catch the train.
You've received helpful advice as to just paying the £53 for now, if I were you I'd be jumping at that, after all your first post said you can't afford the full fine, but you think that ignoring this fine, protesting it at court will end up any cheaper?? Your pride will cost you dearly on this if you don't swallow it now and pay up.
and abiding by the rules on a train is hardly comparable at all to hitler and auschwitz...

London50

Glasseye wrote: »

Can we take a breath and just check - you believe I should go to prison as well as pay this fine, because I was in to much of a cluster to double check that I had my Railcard when I left my house? I'm going to let you take a moment to think about what you're saying to someone you've never met, let alone the people who I might support who would be without help if I was locked up.

"Rules are rules..." I wonder if Hitler said that to someone who expressed concern about driving Jews to Auschwitz?

Rules are somewhere on a scale of fair and unfair. I'm willing to be open minded to them sometimes being unfair. This may not be one of those times in your mind, but I'm thankful for people in this works who do something about rules that aren't fair.

- you believe I should go to prison as well as pay this fine, because I was in to much of a cluster to double check that I had my Railcard when I left my house?.......YES I DO,you can say what you like but in one way you were fare dodging {ie not having all the correct paperwork with you to travel}.
Taking the stupid examples you choose to give to try and make something clearly wrong but in your eyes right would you tell a cashier at a till " sorry I was in a rush and forgot my money but will still take this basket of goods, no you would not and there is no excuse for not checking that you had everything you needed before you left home {I would be willing to be you checked you had your keys, wallet and the train ticket so why not the card to go with it?
As for people you might {or might not}support, they would have to learn to manage without you {as many prisoners families have to do when a member is locked up for breaking the law}

Rules are rules..." I wonder if Hitler said that to someone who expressed concern about driving Jews to Auschwitz?

Not IMO the best answer you could give but OK so in your opinion if the rules are unfair do not follow them just do what YOU believe is the better/right way?? I think you will find the was JUST WHAT HITLER DID and we all know the outcome of that don't we!!!!!

London50

"Rules are rules..." I wonder if Hitler said that to someone who expressed concern about driving Jews to Auschwitz?


I was wondering how long it would be before Godwin's law would take to come up..Thank you for keeping my faith in the status quo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

p00hsticks

Glasseye wrote: »

Would people here feel differently about this situation if it was discovered that train companies could have used a different discount system for tickets, in which this didn't happen? I bet every one of us here use (or have used) a discount CODE, rather than inventing a piece of plastic which we can get fined and arrested for not carrying everywhere with us when we travel.

So are you implying that if you not only had forgotten your railcard, but also forgotten your ticket as well, you'd still expect to be let off ?

I'm not aged 16-24, or over 60. I have no opportunity to get reduced price tickets. If you don't want to carry a "piece of plastic" around with you, then just pay the full price.

Glasseye

I think it's unfair because of the reason I gave in my previous post. Partly that it was an honest mistake, and that she offered to accept a photo of the railcard, but not my friend bringing me my actual railcard from my house a couple of minutes away, but mostly because the entire railcard system is hideously designed.

I suspect that there's little drive for them to change it to the system I proposed in my previous post (ie. Just like NUS cards with Spotify - Applying the railcard number to your 'account', which allows you to buy discounted tickets. Then you merely need to prove your ID if challenged, with anything from a driver's licence to a bank card - Think about it; it's so easy to pretend you've got a railcard when you don't, with this system, aside from removing all this fining & legal action, people wouldn't be able to buy a ticket without a railcard having been purchased) because then the train companies would lose lots of money in penalty fares.

I would love to see some open data on what penalty fares earn train companies.

benjus wrote: »

I think that most people, in this country at least, want people that do things by the rules to be defended. You broke a rule by travelling without your railcard. Unintentional I know, but you still broke the rule. If ticket inspectors start allowing people that cannot produce their railcards to get away with it, they open a loophole for less scrupulous people to intentionally travel without a railcard but still claim the discount - for example by lending their railcard to a friend while travelling without it, so two people get the discount at the same time. Why do you think this rule is unfair?