Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

wotsthat wrote: »

Oh you'll get plenty of articles - that's how newspapers make their money today - clickbait. The overegging might be in calling these headlines.

If you had a pound every time I had a non-internet discussion, or heard one, about the Scottish referendum you'd have a pound. Don't expect to retire on how many times I hear Scotland mentioned in the context of the EU referendum.

You're massively over-estimating how much attention people give to the issues that matter to you.

I'm not overestimating how much attention people give to these issues at all. I'm simply pointing out that the media and politicians will use 'the breakup of the UK', click bait or otherwise, in order to push the Remain vote. I hope they don't overdo it, especially if the polling perhaps turns towards a Leave vote closer to the referendum.

Cameron has made a mistake imo calling this so soon after the devolved elections. He's set a precedent should the Scottish Govt wish to call a future referendum... just weeks and almost immediately after another Conservative GE win ( should it happen ). All with the sure back up that there have already been numerous headlines right now, including Tony Blair and No 10, saying that there is no question that the Scottish Govt can do just that whenever it wishes to.

4 hours ago

Brexit could lead to second independence poll and break-up of Britain, says leading Scottish investment fund manager

A DECISION to leave the EU could spark a second Scottish independence referendum and lead to the break-up of Britain, one of the UK’s leading investment fund managers has said.

The remarks from Martin Gilbert, the co-founder and chief executive of Aberdeen Asset Management, came just 24 hours after Downing Street for the first time signalled that a vote to leave the EU could raise the prospect of a second Scottish independence vote.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/14297051.Brexit_could_lead_to_second_independence_poll_and_break_up_of_Britain__says_leading_Scottish_investment_fund_manager/

Shakethedisease

Thrugelmir wrote: »

From 1969.

Same old record. There's a new generation to listen to it currently. How long will they now remain engaged.

How long did the last Scottish generation vote Labour for. The new Fiscal Framework/Scotland Act, income tax etc being collected in Scotland is just a further step away from Westminster.

kabayiri

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'm not overestimating how much attention people give to these issues at all. I'm simply pointing out that the media and politicians will use 'the breakup of the UK', click bait or otherwise, in order to push the Remain vote. I hope they don't overdo it, especially if the polling perhaps turns towards a Leave vote closer to the referendum.
...

I'm confused now.

Do you want the vote to be Remain or Leave?

Surely Leave gives you what you want - a route to independence.

Break up is inevitable anyway, so you tell us.

I'm neutral on scottish indy, as long as its cost neutral to us down here. It won't affect the EU vote for me.

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

I'm confused now.

Do you want the vote to be Remain or Leave?

Surely Leave gives you what you want - a route to independence.

Break up is inevitable anyway, so you tell us.

I'm neutral on scottish indy, as long as its cost neutral to us down here. It won't affect the EU vote for me.

Remain. Whatever the route to Scottish independence is, personally I don't think it should come off the back of a Brexit. Messy, chaotic too soon after the last one ( though more likely to result in a Yes vote after a Brexit admittedly ). I'm not altogether comfortable with the 'break up of the UK' being used as a political football in an EU referendum, but on the other hand am not getting my knickers in a twist about it either. Just pointing out that it is happening.

After last years GE, Corbyn's election, the forthcoming Scottish/devolved elections, all the hassles over the Scotland Act and then the EU ref, it'll be good for everyone to get a breath politically imo. Independence and another build up to another referendum can wait a wee while yet.

Unless there's a Brexit of course. :eek: Which is far more interesting a debate to be had at the moment anyway I'm sure you'll agree.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Remain. Whatever the route to Scottish independence is, personally I don't think it should come off the back of a Brexit. Messy, chaotic too soon after the last one ( though more likely to result in a Yes vote after a Brexit admittedly ).

Indeed.

I voted No in the Scottish indyref, and argued strongly that Scotland was better off in the UK, and I argue just as strongly that the UK is better off in the EU.

As for another Scottish indyref, If it came down to it following a UK 'Leave' vote, Scotland would almost certainly vote for indy and try to pursue a course back into the EU.

It would be a pretty devastating situation for both the Scottish and British economies though.

But as much as I'd hate to be put in that position, even I'd be half tempted to vote for Scottish indy if the UK voted to leave the EU, and I dislike the SNP and nationalism more than most....

My reason for voting to stay in the UK was simple - an Indy Scotland would have been far worse off than a Scotland that remains in the UK.

Our costs of living and taxes would have been higher, unemployment would soar, services would be cut, and we'd all be materially worse off. So the choice to stay in the UK was easy.

But if the UK leaves the EU then many of those negative things will happen to the UK as a whole anyway.

And then the question becomes is it better to be part of a diminished and isolated community of 60 million people, or the Worlds largest single market of 500 million people, and that then becomes a much tougher choice.

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

And then the question becomes is it better to be part of a diminished and isolated community of 60 million people, or the Worlds largest single market of 500 million people, and that then becomes a much tougher choice.

this is a key question for an Iscotland
they need to look closely at Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal and make a judgement

Tromking

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Indeed.

I voted No in the Scottish indyref, and argued strongly that Scotland was better off in the UK, and I argue just as strongly that the UK is better off in the EU.

As for another Scottish indyref, If it came down to it following a UK 'Leave' vote, Scotland would almost certainly vote for indy and try to pursue a course back into the EU.

It would be a pretty devastating situation for both the Scottish and British economies though.

But as much as I'd hate to be put in that position, even I'd be half tempted to vote for Scottish indy if the UK voted to leave the EU, and I dislike the SNP and nationalism more than most....

My reason for voting to stay in the UK was simple - an Indy Scotland would have been far worse off than a Scotland that remains in the UK.

Our costs of living and taxes would have been higher, unemployment would soar, services would be cut, and we'd all be materially worse off. So the choice to stay in the UK was easy.

But if the UK leaves the EU then many of those negative things will happen to the UK as a whole anyway.

And then the question becomes is it better to be part of a diminished and isolated community of 60 million people, or the Worlds largest single market of 500 million people, and that then becomes a much tougher choice.

So you're not a Unionist then Hamish?

.string.

I think Hamish is a pragmatist and is reflecting a real concern that the UK would leave the EU, driven by those who have already taken leave of their senses (just so you now what my view on that is!). The sentiment is understandable sine Scotland would suffer as a result, as would the rest of us. Whether it would then be attractive for Scotland to get a further overlay of economic woe in addition would be the next pragmatic question however; I suspect it would be better to cling together for a while at least, whatever one's views on Scottish Separation.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

I think Hamish is a pragmatist and is reflecting a real concern that the UK would leave the EU, driven by those who have already taken leave of their senses (just so you now what my view on that is!). The sentiment is understandable sine Scotland would suffer as a result, as would the rest of us. Whether it would then be attractive for Scotland to get a further overlay of economic woe in addition would be the next pragmatic question however; I suspect it would be better to cling together for a while at least, whatever one's views on Scottish Separation.

I sincerely doubt there would be much will in clinging on to a UK that had voted itself out of the EU. There was too much emphasis put on it during the referendum campaign. Certainly in terms of voting No being the only way to to stay in.

It's not a situation I want to see either. But the Scottish Govt will never agree willingly to leaving the EU if Scotland votes to stay in. That's been their position since shortly after the independence ref. A short campaign favours the remain vote. But I can't help thinking of all those times Cameron dismissed UKIP by saying that voting Conservative would be the only way to get an EU referendum ( appealing to those who want out ). A lot of Ukippers voted Conservative in order TO vote out. As did half the Tory vote. :eek:

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I sincerely doubt there would be much will in clinging on to a UK that had voted itself out of the EU. There was too much emphasis put on it during the referendum campaign. Certainly in terms of voting No being the only way to to stay in.

It's not a situation I want to see either. But the Scottish Govt will never agree willingly to leaving the EU if Scotland votes to stay in. That's been their position since shortly after the independence ref. A short campaign favours the remain vote. But I can't help thinking of all those times Cameron dismissed UKIP by saying that voting Conservative would be the only way to get an EU referendum ( appealing to those who want out ). A lot of Ukippers voted Conservative in order TO vote out. As did half the Tory vote. :eek:

there is no logic in wanting separation from the english and being better together with the EU except hatred of the english.

if the SNP had campaigned openly on the race issue they would have won hands down.

but there is always time after the 'stay' vote in June.