Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

Dream on!
What you describe would be interference in the internal machinations of a Sovereign State to a totally unacceptable level, and simply won't happen. You overplay Scotland's importance by suggesting it will. In the event of Brexit, it'll be way more in the interest of the EU to treat the democratic will of the British people respectfully rather than agitate with Nationalists to break up the United Kingdom.

If England votes out of the EU, and Scotland votes out of the UK. There would be no 'will of the British people'.. Both the UK/EU and Scotland/UK will have been played out via 'democratic means'. So I can't really see your point.

If England really does want to leave the EU, then it's free to do so. I doubt that Scotland will follow, and that will be down to voters not 'nationalists'. A LOT of people voted No because they didn't want to be 'kicked out of the EU' remember ? ( <

---

I think you've forgotten that). Should things pan out the way we are debating ( is still unlikely, but a possibility ) then the Scottish Govt would simply use the two year negotiating 'window' re the UK exit, to hold another snap referendum, and negotiate separately to stay in, ( rather than leave ) on Scotland's behalf.

But I feel that the very obvious has to be pointed out. Which is that the EU referendum/Brexit has been cited as a trigger for in indy ref2 by the Scottish Govt/SNP.. ever since the EU referendum was announced. They've laid their cards out on the table openly, and consistently for a while now.

If there's a Leave vote, and Scotland votes to Remain. It's extremely unlikely that Scotland will leave along with England. The EU will no doubt will be watching closely. There are some who want to play hard ball. The language is strikingly similar to the Scottish referendum don't you think ?

So this makes it high time for Europeans to take a cold and honest look at the British. Or rather, the English. Scotland is largely pro-EU while Wales and Northern Ireland, with their smaller populations and the less imminent threat of secession, have far less influence. How to deal with the English, then, over Brexit?...

One way to do this would be to meet at least some of the English demands. This is what David Cameron is clearly hoping for, but it would be a historic mistake. If the UK is rewarded for its cynical act of extortion there will be referendums all over the place, paralysing Europe for a decade.
This is why the best way forward for Europe is to threaten to hit the English as hard as we can. We must stop treating membership of the EU as a favour granted by England, and instead make the English feel their vulnerability and dependence....

...So let us start talking now, out loud in Brussels as well as in Europe’s opinion pages and in national parliaments, about the offer we are going to make to the Scots, should they prefer Brussels to London in the event of Brexit. Let’s also discuss in which ways we are going to repatriate financial powers from London to the European mainland. It is strange enough that Europe’s financial centre lies outside the eurozone, but to have it outside the EU? That would be like placing Wall Street in Cuba.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/11/europe-turn-tables-bullying-britain-david-cameron-eu

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

If England votes out of the EU, and Scotland votes out of the UK. There would be no 'will of the British people'.. Both the UK/EU and Scotland/UK will have been played out via 'democratic means'. So I can't really see your point.

If England really does want to leave the EU, then it's free to do so. I doubt that Scotland will follow, and that will be down to voters not 'nationalists'. A LOT of people voted No because they didn't want to be 'kicked out of the EU' remember ? ( <

---

I think you've forgotten that). Should things pan out the way we are debating ( is still unlikely, but a possibility ) then the Scottish Govt would simply use the two year negotiating 'window' re the UK exit, to hold another snap referendum, and negotiate separately to stay in, ( rather than leave ) on Scotland's behalf.

But I feel that the very obvious has to be pointed out. Which is that the EU referendum/Brexit has been cited as a trigger for in indy ref2 by the Scottish Govt/SNP.. ever since the EU referendum was announced. They've laid their cards out on the table openly, and consistently for a while now.

If there's a Leave vote, and Scotland votes to Remain. It's extremely unlikely that Scotland will leave along with England. The EU will no doubt will be watching closely. There are some who want to play hard ball. The language is strikingly similar to the Scottish referendum don't you think ?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/11/europe-turn-tables-bullying-britain-david-cameron-eu

So the choice for Scots will be London or Brussels?
I`m trying imagine the SNP pitch for the Brussels option, will it be along the lines of give up the £1.7K per capita subsidy from the English in order to become a probable net contributor to the EU?
I`m not sure a 21st century version of the 'Auld Alliance' with mainland Europe will be that popular with Scots when push comes to shove.

kabayiri

Shakethedisease wrote: »

If England votes out of the EU, and Scotland votes out of the UK. There would be no 'will of the British people'.. Both the UK/EU and Scotland/UK will have been played out via 'democratic means'. So I can't really see your point.
...

So voting for UK to leave plays into the hands of Scottish independence proponents, in your view?

Does this mean you will be voting to Remain or Leave in EU?

Tricky one eh?

mwpt

Shakethedisease wrote: »

If England votes out of the EU, and Scotland votes out of the UK. There would be no 'will of the British people'.. Both the UK/EU and Scotland/UK will have been played out via 'democratic means'. So I can't really see your point.

Why do you want out of the UK but not out of the EU?

CLAPTON

mwpt wrote: »

Why do you want out of the UK but not out of the EU?

because the scots don't have 300 years of hatred of all foreigners, only the english

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

So the choice for Scots will be London or Brussels?
I`m trying imagine the SNP pitch for the Brussels option, will it be along the lines of give up the £1.7K per capita subsidy from the English in order to become a probable net contributor to the EU?
I`m not sure a 21st century version of the 'Auld Alliance' with mainland Europe will be that popular with Scots when push comes to shove.

They've already pitched for the Brussels option. As above, Sturgeon and and SNP have stated repeatedly that if there's a Brexit but Scotland votes to Remain, that would be a possible trigger for a second independence referendum.

When 'push comes to shove', those that voted No just 18 months ago on the strength of BetterTogether pumping out scare stories 24/7 about how voting Yes would mean 'Scotland would be out of the EU'.. would join the Yes voters. Scotland not being in the EU was a cornerstone of No campaigning for three full years.

January 17, 2016

People in Scotland are overwhelmingly against an EU exit, by 65% to 35%, in contrast to people in England who are narrowly in favour by 53% to 47%, a Panelbase poll for for the Sunday Times and Heart FM indicates.

Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has put a vote to leave the EU against Scotland's will at the top of her list of shifting political circumstances which could trigger a second independence referendum.

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2016/01/17/eu-exit-would-trigger-scots-independence-vote-poll-says/


Northern Ireland and Wales might also have something to say about it. Northern Ireland in particular. Nothing to do with 'Auld Alliances'.

Recent polls for Scotland suggest almost two-thirds of the population support staying in the EU. Polls in Northern Ireland also suggest a clear majority in favour, while in Wales opinion more narrowly supports the EU. So a UK vote for Brexit could mean that England voted ‘leave’ (at the level of 53% or more against the EU), while the other three constituent parts of the UK voted ‘remain’...

Would they go along with such a narrow vote for Brexit? They could potentially block the repeal of EU laws that would be part of the Brexit process – creating a stalemate and deepening the constitutional crisis. They could turn to the EU for advice – Brussels would find it hard not to get dragged into the debate.
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could also demand a differentiated deal – so that, while England negotiates a distant relationship with the EU, they take control of as many areas of EU policy as possible, and stay as close as possible – but still outside of the EU.

Ireland will be part of this crisis too, doubtless demanding urgent talks with London on its relations with the UK and Northern Ireland in the face of Brexit, trying to avoid a hard border between North and South – and pushing the EU for support on this.

http://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/blog/scotland-and-brexit-path-independence-or-crisis

In other words. A proper old mess.

.string.

That article by Luyendijk, linked by Shakey, is very interesting because it mirrors the Scotland/England situation, the smaller part of a Union leaving the larger part. They are quite similar in many ways, the jingoistic nationalism of those that want to leave (SNP and UKippers), and notably the likely consequence that leaving would have on the good will of The "jilted" Union.

In my last post I itemized some of the consequences that the SNP Natand would face resulting from their diversive hate campaign against being British. Our favourite Acoloyte could not grasp the point of that post, resting precariously in a bubble of SNP self aggrandizement completely unaware that the "other side" in a negotiation will have their own objectives which will be all about how well they do out if the negotiation. No doubt that blinkered viewpoint was contrived in order to beguile the Scots but clearly many acolytes take it as fact. They also forget that when the negotiators across the table are 10 times your size, they hold most of the cards. And it ain't going to be luvely-dovey as Shakey tries to argue.

The same is true of the Brexit scenario, jingoistic clap trap based on an inflated opinion of the UK's talent, power and a lack of appreciation that erstwhile friends are getting irked by the anti (European) rhetoric.

Shakey will be glad to know that in those respects, they are typical Brits; or at least some Brits.


Going to another issue, has it occurred yet to the SNP that an Independent Scotland being forced to join the EURO as a price for joining the EU with the restriction of sovereignty that means, would become more likely in the event of a Brexit?

Cameron seems set to establish the existence of a recognised and protected status of Member States that are not in the Euro Zone, with a return of some "competences" to those nations (perhaps all nations). That separate identity for non EURO countries will not, I suspect, survive Brexit, and Europe will become more integrated as a result.

'Bye 'Bye Scottish independence. The SNP are digging a pit for Scotland to fall into as, indeed, are the UKippers.

.string.

Not that I think the UK will vote to leave the EU.

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

So voting for UK to leave plays into the hands of Scottish independence proponents, in your view?

Does this mean you will be voting to Remain or Leave in EU?

Tricky one eh?

No. Not really.

Scotland voted No to independence and to stay within a UK which remained in the EU. I brought up the EU leaving scenario several times here in the past. Pooh-poohed as 'everyone knows the UK will never vote to leave the EU'. But ooooooh Scotland, will be kicked out the very instant there's Yes vote.

A vote to leave. Changes things. Perhaps.

John Curtice.17th January 2016

Third, it appears that a Leave vote in the EU referendum could indeed tilt the balance in any second ballot on independence. For when Panelbase asked their Scottish respondents how they would vote if a majority across the UK as a whole were to vote to Leave, 52% said they would vote Yes, 48% No.

In particular, whereas at the moment 49% of Remain voters would vote No to independence, that figure falls to 39% in the wake of a UK vote to Leave.

http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2016/01/might-scotland-vote-to-leave-the-uk-if-the-uk-votes-to-leave-the-eu/

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

They've already pitched for the Brussels option. As above, Sturgeon and and SNP have stated repeatedly that if there's a Brexit but Scotland votes to Remain, that would be a possible trigger for a second independence referendum.

When 'push comes to shove', those that voted No just 18 months ago on the strength of BetterTogether pumping out scare stories 24/7 about how voting Yes would mean 'Scotland would be out of the EU'.. would join the Yes voters. Scotland not being in the EU was a cornerstone of No campaigning for three full years.

January 17, 2016http://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2016/01/17/eu-exit-would-trigger-scots-independence-vote-poll-says/


Northern Ireland and Wales might also have something to say about it. Northern Ireland in particular. Nothing to do with 'Auld Alliances'.


http://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/blog/scotland-and-brexit-path-independence-or-crisis

In other words. A proper old mess.

as all decent and honest people know, the issue of a second referendum is solely and only determined by the likelihood of success.
anything else is junk nonsense.