Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Mistermeaner

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Yes, you're exactly the reason half of Scotland now want to go.

I am surprised at my level of influence.

Not to sound all childish but you lot started it. I've said before I feel sorry for those Scots who want stay and also for the ignorant who believe the bs that things will somehow be better...... however the leave is so vocal and arrogant I almost want to see the disaster that will follow if they do leave.

For a start we can keep the Barnet money and do something decent with it . Maybe free parking at hospitals or something equally game changing

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

And you accuse the SNP of inflating their power ! Yet according to you the UK will positively dictate to another 27 nation states what the EU should do in the event of a Brexit. As well as Scotland into the bargain as the 'biggest player in the garden' ! Well, never let it be said you didn't have a certain arrogance there.. either that or complete delusion.

Is also strange that if Scotland leaves the UK, then the EU will immediately stop all trade agreements. Yet when the UK leaves the EU, suddenly they'll all be fine and the UK will 'tell them how it is'. Wake up a bit. Seriously.

You really are in a bubble, but blowing it up with hot air still leaves you in the bubble.

I did not write what you claim. Rather the opposite actually. - Proof positive that your bubble is opaque.

Ref posts 8935 & 8950

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's different in circumstances. No push for independence is ever under the exact same circumstances as any other.

Scotland and England joined in a political union in 1707. At some point, and it's looking like the Scots at the present time.. one country in the union may wish to withdraw from it. What's your problem with that if the Scottish electorate want it. Scotland isn't some sort of 'possession'. It runs under the same rules of democracy as England does.

Catalonia has a completely different history.

only a SNP sycophant would deny the ONLY criteria for obtaining independence, is the current democratically expressed will of the people of that geographically area.
Whilst I acknowledge that there are people who agree with you -mainly medieval murderers in the middle east, most western types believe in the sovereignty of the people now, rather that the lords and warlord of 1000 years ago.
I know the SNP haven't given you a script , but if catalonia voted for independence would they have exactly (no more no less) right to that option than if the scots voted for independence in spite of having a different history?

Mistermeaner

Same would apply for the people of yorkshire. Or the 1 person nation of mistermeanerland.

.string.

Re Catalonia (they have their own language by the way and it is spoken by Catalonians there) - their region is normally thought to include the Balearic Islands (Mallorca, Menorca) but Mallorca for example does not consider itself part of Catalonia, they are Mallorcean, with their own dialect of Catalan, which they speak (lessons in school are in that language to the despair of non mallorcean parents and to the detriment of their children.

So the SNP Natland vision is not unique, and the tribal instinct goes as far down as there are power hungry politicians to exploit it (and gullible acolytes).

Freedom for Dorset!

I really must convene a meeting in our Village Hall. Maybe we'll have a Referendum; after all the village was invaded by that foreign king from Winchester a thousand years ago. We could have our own embassies, and an air force. We export blueberries, so no problem about finance.

CLAPTON

.string. wrote: »

Re Catalonia (they have their own language by the way and it is spoken by Catalonians there) - their region is normally thought to include the Balearic Islands (Mallorca, Menorca) but Mallorca for example does not consider itself part of Catalonia, they are Mallorcean, with their own dialect of Catalan, which they speak (lessons in school are in that language to the despair of non mallorcean parents and to the detriment of their children.

So the SNP Natland vision is not unique, and the tribal instinct goes as far down as there are power hungry politicians to exploit it (and gullible acolytes).

Freedom for Dorset!

I really must convene a meeting in our Village Hall. Maybe we'll have a Referendum; after all the village was invaded by that foreign king from Winchester a thousand years ago. We could have our own embassies, and an air force. We export blueberries, so no problem about finance.

that clearly wouldn't work

the people of dorset are too busy living their lives with their family and friends
they have no 1000 years of hating anyone to fire their anger and self destructiveness nor do they have the scottish inferiority complex

Shakethedisease

mwpt wrote: »

Why me first?

But anyway, do you mean In the EU? Or the Scotland vote?

I'd vote to stay in the EU because I now call the UK my home after ~14 years and the EU allowed me to do that. I believe being in the EU has on the whole been beneficial to citizens of the EU including us in the UK. This is gut feel because quite obviously no-one can know if that is true or not, no-one can quantify that with hard evidence. Really, I'm the wrong person to ask though because obviously as someone who has come here on an EU passport and now calls it home, it would be completely disingenuous to vote out. Some of my heritage is actually from the UK, I just happened to be born elsewhere in the world to a mixed heritage. I could in theory apply for UK nationalisation.

Well thank you. Now, it should be too hard to understand why a lot of Scots want to stay in the EU then should it ? More or less the same reasons as yourself in the first sentence.

If you meant Scotland and UK, then If I were a Scot, I'd vote to stay in the union because I believe Scottish people are better off for being in the union. I don't believe an SNP government would make the Scots better off, in fact worse off, for quite some time. I'd care more about the people who wanted to remain in the UK and would be negatively affected. And it is very worrying that some Out voters know this but just don't care. Xenophobes.

I also don't do nationalism. I understand why people do though, it's a tribal concept that will be around for a while, humans love to divide themselves into "us" and "them". But I just think it's a bit silly and will one day (a long time away) be scoffed at, much like xenophobia, misogyny, etc. I find your (and most peoples) adherence to some lines drawn on the ground at some point in the past, lines that shifted, changed and still change, primitive. Particularly because some lines are more important than others to you. You said once, "Scotland is a country, Catalonia isn't" - just think that through for a minute. What if Catalonia becomes a country. These new arbitrary lines suddenly gain a whole new legitimacy in your eyes.

I can respect your views. But they differ from mine. And I live here. Our perspectives are a lot different. Particularly in regard to the day to day running of Scotland and the influence Holyrood now has on daily lives here. Many want much, much more of the same and are feeling increasingly out of touch with Westminster and the politics there. Full powers would be best. It's as simple as that. Nothing really 'nationalist' in the way you describe it or perhaps think about it.

It's more about self-governance, than anything else. Though I know it suits some to paint it along anti-English grounds. It's not something that's particularly prevalent. ( Cue about 10 replies stating otherwise ). But I can only go with my own experiences.

Catalonia has a lot of support in Scotland. I include myself in that. However, what I stated about how the circumstances of possible independence being different for Scotland and Catalonia still apply. Because both histories are very different. Catalonia may wish to be a country.. but you must see that Scotland was and remains one. One that signed a Treaty in 1707 to partner with England in joint governance. A Treaty that many feel has outlived it's 'time'.

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

Talking about splits, the arguments have continued apace over the past few weeks on social media sites and twittersphere within the SNP/Yes movement over the 2 votes for SNP campaign.

Seems fervent SNP voters don't want the risk of a pesky unionist candidate of any kind winning a single seat. Nor any of the small lefty Yes independent parties winning a seat and showing up SNP in H/R for the centrist ,don't rock the boat, talk left, walk right party they've been for years.

Perish the thought.

I doubt anyone outside of Twitter saw much of that. Interesting as it was to follow. Also interesting that Bella Caledonia has lost so much support over the issue which is a shame.. ( always a bit too studenty/airy fairy for me but horses for courses )... RISE has probably lost a lot of goodwill over it.

Personally I don't think now is the time to be divvying up votes for Holyrood between 'pro-indy' parties, especially not under dubious 'tactical voting' methods. The slightest sniff of a 'socialist' govt at Westminster and parties like RISE/Solidarity and mabye Greens would abandon independence like a shot ( unlike the SNP ).. Nor long articles agonising over how 'radical' or what a post independent Scotland should look like politically. Bella/Mike Small has just learnt to his cost, that it's far too soon to be getting bogged down with this stuff.. we're not independent yet. And one should never take one's eye off the main prize. :cool:

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

only a SNP sycophant would deny the ONLY criteria for obtaining independence, is the current democratically expressed will of the people of that geographically area.
Whilst I acknowledge that there are people who agree with you -mainly medieval murderers in the middle east, most western types believe in the sovereignty of the people now, rather that the lords and warlord of 1000 years ago.
I know the SNP haven't given you a script , but if catalonia voted for independence would they have exactly (no more no less) right to that option than if the scots voted for independence in spite of having a different history?

Congrats on completely missing the point I was making.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Well thank you. Now, it should be too hard to understand why a lot of Scots want to stay in the EU then should it ? More or less the same reasons as yourself in the first sentence.



I can respect your views. But they differ from mine. And I live here. Our perspectives are a lot different. Particularly in regard to the day to day running of Scotland and the influence Holyrood now has on daily lives here. Many want much, much more of the same and are feeling increasingly out of touch with Westminster and the politics there. Full powers would be best. It's as simple as that. Nothing really 'nationalist' in the way you describe it or perhaps think about it.

It's more about self-governance, than anything else. Though I know it suits some to paint it along anti-English grounds. It's not something that's particularly prevalent. ( Cue about 10 replies stating otherwise ). But I can only go with my own experiences.

Catalonia has a lot of support in Scotland. I include myself in that. However, what I stated about how the circumstances of possible independence being different for Scotland and Catalonia still apply. Because both histories are very different. Catalonia may wish to be a country.. but you must see that Scotland was and remains one. One that signed a Treaty in 1707 to partner with England in joint governance. A Treaty that many feel has outlived it's 'time'.

so you definitely don't think that democratic values, with people of today making their own decisions, trump historic autocratic undemocratic decisions of long ago.
If some-one living is democratic, liberal Scotland can believe that madness, I guess it's easy to see by the ISIL wants to reconquer Spain, after all it was once theirs.

Perhaps, instead of another referendum, there should be a independent international legal constitutional commission to decide whether the treaty can be set aside by one partner.