Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

That article by Luyendijk, linked by Shakey, is very interesting because it mirrors the Scotland/England situation, the smaller part of a Union leaving the larger part. They are quite similar in many ways, the jingoistic nationalism of those that want to leave (SNP and UKippers), and notably the likely consequence that leaving would have on the good will of The "jilted" Union.

In my last post I itemized some of the consequences that the SNP Natand would face resulting from their diversive hate campaign against being British. Our favourite Acoloyte could not grasp the point of that post, resting precariously in a bubble of SNP self aggrandizement completely unaware that the "other side" in a negotiation will have their own objectives which will be all about how well they do out if the negotiation. No doubt that blinkered viewpoint was contrived in order to beguile the Scots but clearly many acolytes take it as fact. They also forget that when the negotiators across the table are 10 times your size, they hold most of the cards. And it ain't going to be luvely-dovey as Shakey tries to argue.

Those weren't facts you 'itemised'. It was a personal wishlist.

The same is true of the Brexit scenario, jingoistic clap trap based on an inflated opinion of the UK's talent, power and a lack of appreciation that erstwhile friends are getting irked by the anti (European) rhetoric.

Shakey will be glad to know that in those respects, they are typical Brits; or at least some Brits.

It's a view from the 'other side'. The most compelling of which, is that if the EU has to accept all UK demands. That would open the doors for another 27 countries to do likewise. At least here there's only the two.

Going to another issue, has it occurred yet to the SNP that an Independent Scotland being forced to join the EURO as a price for joining the EU with the restriction of sovereignty that means, would become more likely in the event of a Brexit?

No. No one needs to join the Euro. They just have to 'promise' at some point in the future.

Cameron seems set to establish the existence of a recognised and protected status of Member States that are not in the Euro Zone, with a return of some "competences" to those nations (perhaps all nations). That separate identity for non EURO countries will not, I suspect, survive Brexit, and Europe will become more integrated as a result.

'Bye 'Bye Scottish independence. The SNP are digging a pit for Scotland to fall into as, indeed, are the UKippers.

Cameron calling the referendum to appease UKIP back in the day, hoping that a Brexit referendum would play along the same lines as a Scotland one ( never vote to leave anyway ).. has underestimated his own party's feelings on the matter, half the media and half of England by the looks of the recent polls. Not that I'd put 100% faith in those. But in terms of a binary question being put to voters ( such as a referendum one as opposed to election questions/various parties in the mix )... they were pretty much ok with those.

But this all has the potential to cause a real full on political and constitutional crisis among all four nations. So with this one, I hope England votes to remain.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

as all decent and honest people know, the issue of a second referendum is solely and only determined by the likelihood of success.
anything else is junk nonsense.

Yes, that's right. An EU vote to leave would make the likelyhood of success much more likely.

Am sure you'll be voting to stay though. Won't you ?

Mistermeaner

Scottish independence any old how at any cost. Just something else for the snp to attach to.

Mistermeaner

I would currently vote to stay in the eu. But if we do leave getting rid of the needy whingers up north would be some compensation

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Catalonia isn't a nation.

:rotfl:
As they say in Aus, "If you keep pulling it'll spit".
:T

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

T



But this all has the potential to cause a real full on political and constitutional crisis among all four nations. So with this one, I hope England votes to remain.

Do you have any regard for the democratic wishes of the people? (except for the Scots of course).

You've already excluded the people of Catalonia democratic self determination just because their region wasn't born in murder and bloodshed by the Scottish warlords.

Generali

kabayiri wrote: »

So voting for UK to leave plays into the hands of Scottish independence proponents, in your view?

Does this mean you will be voting to Remain or Leave in EU?

Tricky one eh?

You must remember that in the mind of STD, absolutely any possible set of events leads to Scotland leaving the UK.

.string.

Are you comfortable in your bubble Shakey? You should get out more. You need to take on board what others' reaction might be and and what the consequences might be. It is the equivalent to all those times you have said things like " that won't play well in Scotland", it's not about what you think will happen, it's about unintended consequences.

Cameron has been accused variously of placating his right wing, sceptics, or running scared of UKIP. I'm sure that those have been thoughts in his mind, but not necessarily the primary driver. The real, fundamental, driving force is public opinion, in other words the voters because they are the ones that need to be convinced, and who choose Goverment policy via the ballot box, not this or that political faction. My guess is that it was that which drove him.

Cheered on by Euro Sceptics of all hues, including much of the media, the public has been turning against the EU. The boil has to be lanced before it gets too late.

A referendum gives a chance for the voting public to see some real arguments - you would agree with that I presume. So it's better that a decision is based on rationality rather than gutter emotion.

So rather than appeasing anyone, Cameron is actually taking them head on. It's a gamble of course, but it is regrettably necessary.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

They've already pitched for the Brussels option. As above, Sturgeon and and SNP have stated repeatedly that if there's a Brexit but Scotland votes to Remain, that would be a possible trigger for a second independence referendum.

When 'push comes to shove', those that voted No just 18 months ago on the strength of BetterTogether pumping out scare stories 24/7 about how voting Yes would mean 'Scotland would be out of the EU'.. would join the Yes voters. Scotland not being in the EU was a cornerstone of No campaigning for three full years.

When push does comes to shove (not some poll btw), I can't conceive of a situation where Scots would vote for penury. The thought of Sturgeon being fêted by a chastened EU in the event of the UK going it alone obviously appeals to you, but it ain't happening.

Generali

Tromking wrote: »

When push does comes to shove (not some poll btw), I can't conceive of a situation where Scots would vote for penury. The thought of Sturgeon being fêted by a chastened EU in the event of the UK going it alone obviously appeals to you, but it ain't happening.

The latest pitch is that apparently the Scots are so heartily sick of the [STRIKE]English[/STRIKE] Tories that they'll vote Yes out of spite. The fact that Granny's cancer meds and Jonny's education won't be able to be paid for is neither here nor there. Apparently.