Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

no, that's not right

Just as Nicola doesn't take the full inflated salary, she is entitled to, as the highest paid public official in the UK, you can voluntarily renounce this immoral levy on the English and return it.
Matter of principles for people that believe in 'fairer' and 'more equal' society.
But I find that most people with principles tend to find that principles co-incides with self interest. Amazing.

Far better just to forget about the whole thing, divorce and bid farewell... ( divvying up the shared assets/debt once the decision is made ). Rather than go through all this ill feeling... as your post so wonderfully epitomises ?

It's heading that way anyway. May as well just enjoy the ride. You want this union to end just as much as half of Scotland does. And the EU one as well ? You should be pleased. There's no need to add any nastiness to either debate.

Things do seem to be accelerating though. Those EU 'Leave' polls are starting to mount up in the lead. And I have to admit, that I was one of those that 'didn't think it would happen', or even near it. More interesting times ahead perhaps. But we can leave the 'immoral' stuff out of it can't we ? The 'status quo' and 'certainties' of 17th Sept 2014 ( the day before the Scottish referendum ) are falling down around everyone's ears now. The General Election result and the Labour leadership being the first to fall.

The EU referendum may prove the same.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Far better just to forget about the whole thing, divorce and bid farewell... ( divvying up the shared assets/debt once the decision is made ). Rather than go through all this ill feeling... as your post so wonderfully epitomises ?

It's heading that way anyway. May as well just enjoy the ride. You want this union to end just as much as half of Scotland does. And the EU one as well ? You should be pleased. There's no need to add any nastiness to either debate.

Things do seem to be accelerating though. Those EU 'Leave' polls are starting to mount up in the lead. And I have to admit, that I was one of those that 'didn't think it would happen', or even near it. More interesting times ahead perhaps. But we can leave the 'immoral' stuff out of it can't we ? The 'status quo' and 'certainties' of 17th Sept 2014 ( the day before the Scottish referendum ) are falling down around everyone's ears now. The General Election result and the Labour leadership being the first to fall.

The EU referendum may prove the same.

I wouldn't get too excited just yet. For a start nobody knows what they're going to be voting on. There also seems to be plenty of support for staying in too:

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9585

Meanwhile the weekly ICM EU referendum tracker has started up again after the Christmas break. Their final poll of 2015 had been an unusual 50-50 split but the latest poll has reverted to the norm – REMAIN 44%, LEAVE 38% (the equivalent, after don’t knows are excluded) of REMAIN 54%, LEAVE 46%. Full tabs are here.

Also, it is worth noting that the only social grouping with majority support for quitting the EU in this poll at least is Ds & Es. They are vanishingly unlikely to vote. IIRC 8% of Ds & Es turned out at the last election.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

I wouldn't get too excited just yet. For a start nobody knows what they're going to be voting on. There also seems to be plenty of support for staying in too:

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9585

Also, it is worth noting that the only social grouping with majority support for quitting the EU in this poll at least is Ds & Es. They are vanishingly unlikely to vote. IIRC 8% of Ds & Es turned out at the last election.

Oh don't worry. * Excitement contained*

However, it IS pretty worrying that right wing newspapers and leaflets are going out with this sort of narrative in them. Don't you think ?

Remaining in the European Union will increase likelihood of Cologne-style sex attacks, warns Vote Leave boss

The ‘ground war’ in the referendum on Britain's membership of the EU starts today in earnest with the Remain campaign sending out 10 million leaflets, designed to appeal to different regions, to homes across the country

...Dominic Cummings, campaign director of Vote Leave, said there was "nothing" to stop the sex attackers from moving to the UK once they get German citizenship.
The news came as Nigel Farage, the leader of the UK Independence Party, accused most Cabinet ministers of putting their careers before their conscience and backing David Cameron’s position to stay in the EU...

...The comments from Mr Cummings about the alleged sex attacks on hundreds of German women by immigrants over New Year show that the Vote Leave campaign is not afraid to play the 'fear' card to win support.
Mr Cummings wrote on Twitter, the social media website: "EU law = once Cologne sex abusers get citizenship they can fly to UK & there's nothing we can do. #VoteLeave = safer choice.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12104463/Remaining-in-the-European-Union-will-increase-likelihood-of-Cologne-style-sex-attacks-warns-Vote-Leave-boss.html

I'm totally cringing already at what's going to be force fed to English voters up until the referendum. Salmond and oil prices seem pretty tame and sterile in comparison to this nasty stuff on leaflets. A lot of people won't care what they're voting on. As long as immigration is 'stopped'. Negative campaigning worked in the Scottish referendum. I think you're about to see it being taken to the next level.. and by credible news outlets reporting the above as 'news' too. The Yes campaign got little in the way of favourable coverage.

I also wouldn't dismiss levels of D and E's. Referenda aren't elections. People actually feel that their vote matters. Turnout for the Scottish one was the highest ever. There's no reason to assume the EU one will be anything different. The Leave campaign will be out in droves ( like RIC was in Scotland in housing estates with previously low turnouts ).. registering people to vote. And lets not forget that UKIP got quite a bit of traction in more traditional northern English Labour areas during the General Election.

It may be matter of concern to the 'remain' camp, that those who voted Conservative in order to 'stop the SNP' and Labour, but not UKIP because they wanted an EU referendum but the Tories had already promised one.... are also those most likely to want out of the EU. So that's Tory voters AND D's and E's.

Edit. Just read some of the comments under that article. Oh dear...

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Oh don't worry. * Excitement contained*

However, it IS pretty worrying that right wing newspapers and leaflets are going out with this sort of narrative in them. Don't you think ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12104463/Remaining-in-the-European-Union-will-increase-likelihood-of-Cologne-style-sex-attacks-warns-Vote-Leave-boss.html

I'm totally cringing already at what's going to be force fed to English voters up until the referendum. Salmond and oil prices seem pretty tame and sterile in comparison to this nasty stuff on leaflets. A lot of people won't care what they're voting on. As long as immigration is 'stopped'. Negative campaigning worked in the Scottish referendum. I think you're about to see it being taken to the next level.. and by credible news outlets reporting the above as 'news' too. The Yes campaign got little in the way of favourable coverage.

I also wouldn't dismiss levels of D and E's. Referenda aren't elections. People actually feel that their vote matters. Turnout for the Scottish one was the highest ever. There's no reason to assume the EU one will be anything different. The Leave campaign will be out in droves ( like RIC was in Scotland in housing estates with previously low turnouts ).. registering people to vote. And lets not forget that UKIP got quite a bit of traction in more traditional northern English Labour areas during the General Election.

It may be matter of concern to the 'remain' camp, that those who voted Conservative in order to 'stop the SNP' and Labour, but not UKIP because they wanted an EU referendum but the Tories had already promised one.... are also those most likely to want out of the EU. So that's Tory voters AND D's and E's.

Edit. Just read some of the comments under that article. Oh dear...

Yup, I have no doubt that there will be some pretty nasty stuff out there. The newspapers in the UK also have plenty of form when it comes to spinning EU news to give an anti-stance (bendy bananas spring to mind).

The Telegraph had a very good piece on why the UK will vote to stay in and many of the arguments are the ones I used about why Scotland would vote to stay in: people vote for the status quo and it's not that hard to convince them to do so.

skintmacflint

I believe a majority vote to leave Europe would prove to be as big a headache for Sturgeon as it would for Cameron.

Enterprise_1701C

dktreesea wrote: »

England needs get on with it and solve their flooding problems by building suitable dams in the catchment areas of their major rivers. This will have an added, and potentially vital, benefit to them of storing up water in case they need it to offset drought.


If a major drought does hit England, or even if the fracking projects actually start to produce gas, which will likely pollute underground water wherever it is carried out, then Scotland won't need the oil; they'll be too busy selling their southern neighbour water.

Maybe we should keep the £5 billion that we are supposed to be handing over under the Barnet formula because of HS2 and actually dredge the rivers instead, which is what we should have been doing anyway and we could restart doing if we get rid of those lily livered idiots in brussels.

Oh, and it really makes me laugh that Sturgeon seems to think that the EU would actually let Scotland rejoin in their own right, I find that highly unlikely, and why on earth would you want to leave the UK and then join the EU that would never let you even breathe without asking permission.

Generali

skintmacflint wrote: »

I believe a majority vote to leave Europe would prove to be as big a headache for Sturgeon as it would for Cameron.

I agree. There is no way that the SNP wants a vote on independence right now with the economics looking so horrible.

HornetSaver

skintmacflint wrote: »

I believe a majority vote to leave Europe would prove to be as big a headache for Sturgeon as it would for Cameron.

Bigger.

Cameron would probably step aside fairly swiftly in those circumstances rather than be seen as tying his successor's hands. Sturgeon would have to accelerate the referendum regardless of whether it was the optimum economic and political time to be near certain of a Yes vote. A headache she would take if offered, but a headache nonetheless.

.string.

HornetSaver wrote: »

Bigger.

Cameron would probably step aside fairly swiftly in those circumstances rather than be seen as tying his successor's hands. Sturgeon would have to accelerate the referendum regardless of whether it was the optimum economic and political time to be near certain of a Yes vote. A headache she would take if offered, but a headache nonetheless.

There could well be difficulties both before and, if "Yes" won the referendum, after.

I would not be surprised if a referendum was refused on the grounds that it was not according to previous agreements with the SNP or Scotland's interest at this time. That would make any such referendum illegal with many difficulties facing the SNP both in discussions/negotiations they might subsequently have with the UK and the EU (if the EU were allowed by their Member States).

An illegal referendum would allow the UK Government to be free of any restraints cf "Purdah", also the press, the whole works.

The SNP would therefore be under pressure to agree a legal referendum. They would whine and moan and few would care.

From that viewpoint I would also not be surprised to see a few conditions coming up for a referendum to be agreed legal by the U.K., possibly including some of these

o. Separation to be with 18 months, backed by cancellation of the Barnet formula(*)
o. Votes of Scottish people living in the rest of the UK to be included in those qualified to vote
o. Non UK citizens to be excluded from voting
o. A more neutral question being used instead of Yes /No
o. A minimum of 60% required for changing the status quo

A bit bullish? Certainly, but the SNP will sooner or later bear the fruits of having pi**ed off the rest of the UK.

(*) This because the SNP would be quite happy to dwell under the money tree while they wait for oil prices to go up

Shakethedisease

HornetSaver wrote: »

Bigger.

Cameron would probably step aside fairly swiftly in those circumstances rather than be seen as tying his successor's hands. Sturgeon would have to accelerate the referendum regardless of whether it was the optimum economic and political time to be near certain of a Yes vote. A headache she would take if offered, but a headache nonetheless.

Yes she would. But like the EU once the vote was in, and if it was a Yes.. then negotiations begin. Scotland wouldn't be independent overnight, any more than the UK would be out of the EU overnight.

These things take time. It's not quite as 'black and white' in or or out as these things are seen to be. Would take 2 years at least for the UK to leave the EU. If there were a Scottish referendum to leave the UK.. then negotiations would be further complicated by EU negotiations.

The Scottish Daily Mail are saying Mundel hinted at June for an EU ref. Cameron may be getting nervous about things. And there have been two extensive articles today from prominent Scottish unionists... bemoaning the fact that no one seems to 'care' that Scotland might leave, if there's and EU vote out. ( Alex Massie, Spectator, Chris Deerin, Daily Mail ).. Wake up call for both I think. No one does care that much any more. And yet again, the comments beneath each are a joy, and a gift to the SNP, to behold.

Yes, Brexit could very easily lead to the break-up of Britain

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/yes-brexit-could-very-easily-lead-to-the-break-up-of-britain/

Why the Brexit poll could become England’s accidental ballot on Scotland leaving the UK

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3404257/Why-Brexit-poll-England-s-accidental-ballot-Scotland-leaving-UK.html