Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Generali wrote: »

Chart 2.3 tells you all you need to know.

Scotland has 8.7% of UK population but contributes just 2.89% of UK income tax.

Ouch...

HornetSaver

Shakethedisease wrote: »

There are two countries in the Act of Union 1707. If one wishes to leave via fair and democratic means in seeking self-determination, then that I'm afraid will be that.

I agree, which is exactly why if a referendum is scheduled to be held roughly 12-15 years from 2014, or after a major constitutional change that Scotland opposes, Westminster will have no option but to go along with it.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

[
To answer you in simple terms. The Holyrood election will be in 2021. The Tories reelected in 2020. In between,if there's no EU exit, the SNP will call a 'consultative' referendum just after the Tories are put back into power.
...
Westminster will wail and try to stop it. But this in turn will only strengthen a Yes vote.

Which is exactly why it is a terrible idea for the Yes side.

Annoying the Tories is a worthy endeavour and a vote winner north and south of the border (even as far south as here), one that I more often than not support but not something that must be done at all costs.

How did Salmond get the Edinburgh Agreement - a referendum in which a win would have ensured a clean and quick transition? By gritting his teeth and working with someone he has little in common with on any political matter. There's no question that the SNP has the ability to organise and win a disputed referendum, but that won't get Scotland the best separation possible, assuming it even achieves it at all.

To do as you forecast would reduce the independence movement to the level of several failed efforts such as Catalonia, when for the sake of another 5-7 years there would almost certainly be another binding referendum to be had, which the nationalists would most likely win.

As a follow-up to my point about Salmond, the precedent you keep talking about was the 2012 Edinburgh Agreement and the resulting referendum. For all its vagueness it was a fantastic agreement in principle - both sides agreed that Westminster grant Holyrood explicit consent to legislate for the 2014 referendum, as that was the mechanism necessary to ensure no challenge of its validity from either side of the debate. Both sides agreed that funding, the question and franchise should be finalized far in advance to ensure fairness, and both sides agreed to respect the result. All of those points - which with the exception of one work to the nationalists' advantage - would be negated if the SNP misjudged its timing on try 2.

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I don't think anyone believes it's as bad as folk like you make out anymore.

What's changed?

kabayiri

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

...

We calculated that a rise in income tax of 5% (or even a 3% rise in income tax and additional stealth taxes elsewhere) for earners like us, would be more than a mortgage payment on a house in Carlisle, so if that's the way the country looks like going many would be better off moving across the border and would do so.

This is just one of the reasons why Scottish independence is not necessarily a bad thing for everyone.

Some people and businesses in rUK will benefit from the change in spending patterns. The NE is a big public sector employer; it could absorb jobs resulting from Scottish losses.

Even the transition costs of independence will bring income to individuals and consultancies keen to cash in. The big accountancies will all feature heavily.

Any change creates winners and losers. Mobile people like yourself, Hamish, can position yourself to not lose out.

Mistermeaner

It will be poor of Scotland who will lose the most. Ironically those most likely to support independence.

IMO the easiest to influence.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

And yet another SNP candidate in trouble with the Law..

An SNP candidate and local councillor is facing allegations that he stole crockery from ASDA.

Steven Carleschi, 30, has been charged with shoplifting and is accused of attempting to steal from the same store that he apparently holds his weekly surgeries in.

Carleschi, who was elected to represent the Carse, Kinnaird and Tryst ward in Falkirk back in 2012, was chosen to stand in this year's Scottish Parliament elections.

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/this-snp-politician-has-been-charged-by-police-after-being-accused-of-stealing-crockery-from-asda--ZkWaf39Rzhx

Mistermeaner

In any population of politicians you will find those who do bad. Snp are no better or worse in that regard than others. Also those in power are easiest targets so no surprise this stuff pops up.

Far more serious is their intent to take their countryman over the brink for what I can only assume is for purely reasons of their own personal desire for power.

The ignorant masses will always be that. I assume politicians to generally be intelligent and informed enough to realise the consequences of their decisions.

The snp clearly value personal power over the well being of the country they profess to represent

.string.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

And yet another SNP candidate in trouble with the Law..


http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/this-snp-politician-has-been-charged-by-police-after-being-accused-of-stealing-crockery-from-asda--ZkWaf39Rzhx

Nicole asked: "Judge us on our record"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34556470

That would be Criminal Record.

Just joking; it's their political record that really stinks.

dktreesea

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

You have again completely avoided my questions.

I know you don't want to believe these are likely outcomes.

But that's not what I'm asking.

So I'll ask again...

If people like you, can convince enough people to vote yes, and it turns out people such as me are right and we end up like Greece with...

25% unemployment
Today's generation financially stuffed for their lifetime
People losing their savings and houses
Banks collapsing with no way to save them
Cost of living and taxes rising
Austerity Max cuts with the NHS budget slashed & services/benefits cut by 25% or more

Is that a price you think would be worth it?

If I am right, and that happens, and it lasts for a several decades...

Is that a price worth paying for you?

Another genuine question - is there any price you don't think the people of Scotland would judge as worth it for indy?

Like Greece? Seriously, this is Scotland we're talking about, right? An independent Scotland would never end up like Greece. Our government gets far more bang for their buck than Westminster, let alone Greece. Short arms and deep pockets, all the way up to the government. That's what I love about the place. And worse, is fleeced by spend thrift Westminster 9see article below).



I don't agree with everything the SNP do. I think all prescriptions should have a small co-payment, even if it is only 80p per item. That way people would stop going to see the doctor for a prescription for Panadol or its equivalent that costs 39p at the local Asda.


Even so, blindly supporting the Union is ignoring the ways Scotland has to subsidise spending in the rest of the UK, or gets charged for spending like defence even though the money spent in Scotland on the defence forces is considerably less than Westminster charges us.


http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/westminster-charges-scotland-billions-of-pounds-in-service-costs/

Generali

dktreesea wrote: »

Like Greece? Seriously, this is Scotland we're talking about, right? An independent Scotland would never end up like Greece. Our government gets far more bang for their buck than Westminster, let alone Greece. Short arms and deep pockets, all the way up to the government. That's what I love about the place. And worse, is fleeced by spend thrift Westminster 9see article below).



I don't agree with everything the SNP do. I think all prescriptions should have a small co-payment, even if it is only 80p per item. That way people would stop going to see the doctor for a prescription for Panadol or its equivalent that costs 39p at the local Asda.


Even so, blindly supporting the Union is ignoring the ways Scotland has to subsidise spending in the rest of the UK, or gets charged for spending like defence even though the money spent in Scotland on the defence forces is considerably less than Westminster charges us.


http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/westminster-charges-scotland-billions-of-pounds-in-service-costs/

Scotland subsidises London :rotfl:

A few weeks of fiscal autonomy for Scotland should be brought in. It would swiftly deal with credulous idiots like this.