Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

dktreesea wrote: »

Like Greece? Seriously, this is Scotland we're talking about, right? An independent Scotland would never end up like Greece.

The Greeks thought Greece would never end up like Greece. :eek:

If you'd gone to Greece in 2007, and told any ordinary Greek citizen what would happen to them over the next 7 years, they'd have laughed you out the door.

An independent Scotland would have a worse economic position than Greece does.

That's not a matter of opinion...

That is a matter of the public finances on record as per the Scottish government's own figures.

Our government gets far more bang for their buck than Westminster, let alone Greece. Short arms and deep pockets, all the way up to the government. That's what I love about the place. And worse, is fleeced by spend thrift Westminster 9see article below).

You do realise we are subsidised by Westminster/English taxpayers to the tune of £1700 per person per year, on top of our population share of the deficit?

We collect less tax per person and pay vastly more per person for our services.

I don't agree with everything the SNP do.

This has nothing to do with the SNP.

It's simply a matter of cold hard economics...

Even so, blindly supporting the Union is ignoring the ways Scotland has to subsidise spending in the rest of the UK,

Scotland does not subsidise the rest of the UK at all and hasn't in decades.

There are just 3 years in the last 15 years where the Scottish deficit was smaller in proportionate terms than the UK deficit.

Every other year we've been subsidised by England.

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

I stated SNP would win plenty of seats at the GE, and 2016 could very likely see Scotland as a single party state by democratic choice.

Logical deduction if you analysed the number of people who voted Yes by areas, which I had. And assumed they would likely vote SNP , while the number of people who voted No, would be split between several different parties.

Are you getting threads mixed up , or just making things up as you go along as usual again? I can't recall anyone on this thread, least of all me suggesting Labour nor Conservatives would sweep the board in Scotland in 2015? Nor that Salmond would disappear in disgrace into oblivion. No such luck. Although I think Nicola Selfie probably wishes he would for a wee while.

Your views and opinions are perfectly acceptable for you to have in a democratic society. But I wouldn't say you reflect the views or opinions of the majority of Scots. You don't even reflect the views of all SNP/Yes voters. IMO. Or at least the many I know, and some of the SNP people I know would certainly surprise you. Lol.

But seems as how you're so self confident in your capabilities what % turnout are you predicting for the H/R elections in May compared to the GE?

No, I've been posting on this board and more specifically in Scottish threads since 2010/11. Lets just say I've 'been round the block' a few times with Hamish and Generali ( in a forum kind of way ) over these issues. Many times. I don't think you were around then, and a lot of the old threads have disappeared.

Before the referendum, no-one thought the SNP would get much in the way of Westminster seats. The polls were telling a different story with support climbing. You accused me of 'wishful thinking' skint.. I was simply pointing out the fact that, well, that's something on these boards, I've been accused of many, many times before ( as well as extremism, and being a cult member)...

Polling wise. I actually do reflect broad brush views of many Scots voters. Simply dismissing as 'wishful thinking' is dismissing 45 - 50 % of the the entire Scottish electorate at the most recent big test of opinion ( the last General Election) . But, you carry on...

Mistermeaner

^ case in point

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

Has your Dad told you he would vote Yes then? I'm assuming he hasn't.

I'm in my early 70's, so obviously have a different outlook, in that my years are limited. Assuming your Dad is ages with me, he will have lived through several governments, and experienced various ups, downs and losses in his life, financial and otherwise.

I'm guessing his decision will be based on whether he wants to watch his extended family sacrificing the best years of their youth experiencing financial hardship on the premise of an idealistic dream, he knows is unlikely to be realised in their lifetimes.

But I could be wrong.

He'd be an undecided now, and that's only 14 months after being the most staunch unionist I know. Another five years of the Conservatives in power with no sign of a Labour revival ( he thinks Corbyn is a coward ).. would push him Yes I think. He's 65.

For a lot of older Labour voters 'down the bowling club ' ( most of them ex-steelworkers and car workers around here).. it was Salmond that was the main sticking point. He'd been around for a very long time and there was a lot of negative feeling about him, and 1979 ( Tartan Tories ? ) about. That's why Labour concentrated so much of their campaign negatively around him during the referendum. Sturgeon to an extent has removed most of that. He quite likes her.

But his views have definitely shifted. Not that we discuss politics all the time though !

Shakethedisease

Mistermeaner wrote: »

^ case in point

^ Hamish is in the minority of Scottish political views ? Yes.

Shakethedisease

Thrugelmir wrote: »

What's changed?

Independence is being normalised. It's becoming a commonly held and valid view in Scotland. As opposed to the loony SNP, their 6 Westminster seats and with their 25% support for independence in 2011. It's hitting 50% now. I can't see a way back ( imo ) apart from Labour winning Westminster again.

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

You have again completely avoided my questions.

I know you don't want to believe these are likely outcomes.

But that's not what I'm asking.

So I'll ask again...

If people like you, can convince enough people to vote yes, and it turns out people such as me are right and we end up like Greece with...

25% unemployment
Today's generation financially stuffed for their lifetime
People losing their savings and houses
Banks collapsing with no way to save them
Cost of living and taxes rising
Austerity Max cuts with the NHS budget slashed & services/benefits cut by 25% or more

Is that a price you think would be worth it?

If I am right, and that happens, and it lasts for a several decades...

Is that a price worth paying for you?

Another genuine question - is there any price you don't think the people of Scotland would judge as worth it for indy?

MOST people don't believe these outcomes. Just like MOST people, even No voters didn't believe Scotland couldn't use the £.

IF you are right.. Then it will be too late to do anything about it. There's no going back. Scotland isn't Greece. And isn't likely to be. But at the end of the day Greece deals with Greek problems. Scotland dealing with Scottish problems might be better than the UK dealing with Scottish problems. But to be honest, you've over egged the pudding so much over the last few years. No one is listening anymore. You call it denial and that's fair enough if that's how you see it. For some of us the possible pro's of an independent Scotland, outweigh the possible con's of staying in the union.

The status quo went out of the window the minute Cameron, Miliband and Clegg made that vow I'm afraid. Nothing will ever be the same as it was again. And the politics is very quickly overtaking the economics as the deciding factor.

There will be a vague clause in the next SNP manifesto, not an outright commitment... of an option to call another referendum due to 'material change'. And it'll be in there because Sturgeon, Swinney and Hosie have repeated the phrase over and over for the last few months. So it won't come as a surprise to anyone. If the polls start rising again, then they'll call it. You should prepare yourself for the possibility at least. Because not seeing that that's what may be ahead, is also denial Hamish. Am I right ?

HornetSaver

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Sturgeon to an extent has removed most of that. He quite likes her.

That's not exclusively a Scottish thing.

A lot of the hysteria in England around a Labour-SNP Westminster agreement in the run up to the general election stemmed from anti-Salmond sentiment as much as anti-nationalist. To paraphrase Scottish political scientist Frankie Boyle (talking about something other than politics): had Salmond responded to the referendum by describing his party as a load of useless ****s that he'd never work with again, English swing voters would've been far less receptive to the argument that an SNP influence was a reason not to vote Labour.

Sturgeon on the other hand is someone who will play the issue rather than the sentiment. When she argues down another point of view, you feel that her primary motivation is to argue her point of view, rather than to give the other person a kicking. As a result she is surprisingly popular down south given her primary political aim.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

MOST people don't believe these outcomes. Just like MOST people, even No voters didn't believe Scotland couldn't use the £.

IF you are right.. Then it will be too late to do anything about it. There's no going back. Scotland isn't Greece. And isn't likely to be. But at the end of the day Greece deals with Greek problems. Scotland dealing with Scottish problems might be better than the UK dealing with Scottish problems. But to be honest, you've over egged the pudding so much over the last few years. No one is listening anymore. You call it denial and that's fair enough if that's how you see it. For some of us the possible pro's of an independent Scotland, outweigh the possible con's of staying in the union.

The status quo went out of the window the minute Cameron, Miliband and Clegg made that vow I'm afraid. Nothing will ever be the same as it was again. And the politics is very quickly overtaking the economics as the deciding factor.

There will be a vague clause in the next SNP manifesto, not an outright commitment... of an option to call another referendum due to 'material change'. And it'll be in there because Sturgeon, Swinney and Hosie have repeated the phrase over and over for the last few months. So it won't come as a surprise to anyone. If the polls start rising again, then they'll call it. You should prepare yourself for the possibility at least. Because not seeing that that's what may be ahead, is also denial Hamish. Am I right ?

As a part of Greece's problems are due to the fact that Greece uses a currency that she doesn't print you might want to think again about considering Scotland's banks to be solvent if Scotland uses the pound. Indeed Scotland being in the pound and in the EU would be the worst possible outcome for the country if a bank was to become insolvent as the Scottish Government would be obliged under EU law to bail out the bank's savers and unable simply to print the money to do so.

Scotland's fiscal problems would be far worse than Greece's. The gap between taxes and spending is greater.

If the Scots every vote for independence then heaven help the liars that bring it to be. Nobody in their right mind would vote for independence the way the numbers stack up. It would mean the end of the welfare state for a start.

elantan

I'm loving how yesterday's anti snp rant from the British Nats was about a pair of wellies ams a jacket ... priceless stuff from a telegraph journalist ... priceless