Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

Mistermeaner wrote: »

No I don't think you are racist or thick for that matter.

My statement was airy fairy as I was typing on the toilet so wanted to keep it brief. It's also generalizing so I don't expect it to apply to all snp and snp supporters but as a generalisation of the Scotland situation in one paragraph I stand by it.

Nothing personal to you - I think for your own reasons you want an independent scotland and see the snp as the best way to get there (correct me if I'm wrong)

IMO I don't think that an independent scotland would be best for the majority of Scots, and I think the snp knows this so what we see is silly games being played by the snp to gather support for no reason other than to have power itself (not independence, just power) , to get this support they pander to the thick just like ukip by tapping into intrinsic nationalism and tell people to support them as they will be better off on their own. They buy cheap votes with silly economic policies like bedroom tax refunds and free hospital parking while dithering on the difficult things like ffa , currency , subsidies , shale etc

They play an easy game and I'm surprised someone as sharp as you can't see it - in fact I think you do but just likearguing and after all why not as that's what we're all doing here

There are lots of sharp people in Scotland who see things the way I do. And I don't agree with your point that the SNP want power as opposed to independence. The likes of Salmond and Sturgeon would've made lives far, far easier for themselves politically.. if they'd simply joined the Labour party years ago instead in pursuit of mere power. I expect that's true of a lot of those who are in the SNP, past and the more recent present. They only had 6 MP's a few months ago. And it had been that way for decades before that.

And actually I think it's the other way round. In the pursuit of a more 'social democratic society' ( whether they've achieved, failed or stagnated towards that is a matter of opinion) and their handling of the Scottish devolved govt for the last few years.. They've turned people towards seeking independence as the best way to achieve it. Many now feel that achieving a 'fairer' society is only now possible with a fully independent government in Scotland.

..I guess the Tories in power can only help with bolstering that somewhat.

Corbyn is kind of doing the same thing along the same lines with the Labour leadership and the policies he's setting out. Many of which are shared with the SNP.. and it looks like there are some grassroots now waking up in England too. More socially democratic policies are attractive to a lot of people. Not sure how that will play so much in England though if he wins. I have no dog in that fight.

Monday 3 August 2015 A detailed breakdown of political attitudes north and south of the border shows more than one in seven Scots fall in to the most radical segment of the left-right political spectrum.
That compares with fewer than one in 10 in England, despite the two countries being broadly similar across the rest of the political divide....


...He also discovered that nearly one in four SNP voters ranked in this group of most committed leftists, suggesting strong connections between radical progressive views and nationalism.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13525237.Revealed__Scotland_s_booming_left_in_hard_numbers/

But yes, I think it's the other way round. The independence referendum woke up a lot of people to politics and the possibilities, especially more left sided/progressive ones. It also 'normalised' the concept of Scottish independence. Labour didn't fare very well under the microscope though. Confused the ref with an election campaign and consequently, looked like they were the one's only looking towards retaining a power base in Westminster. Nothing to do with Scotland really. That was a bad move imo.

* I use the words 'fairer'/socially democratic'/'progressive' broadly as they mean very different things to different people.

.string.

Mistermeaner wrote: »

No I don't think you are racist or thick for that matter.

My statement was airy fairy as I was typing on the toilet so wanted to keep it brief. It's also generalizing so I don't expect it to apply to all snp and snp supporters but as a generalisation of the Scotland situation in one paragraph I stand by it.

Nothing personal to you - I think for your own reasons you want an independent scotland and see the snp as the best way to get there (correct me if I'm wrong)

IMO I don't think that an independent scotland would be best for the majority of Scots, and I think the snp knows this so what we see is silly games being played by the snp to gather support for no reason other than to have power itself (not independence, just power) , to get this support they pander to the thick just like ukip by tapping into intrinsic nationalism and tell people to support them as they will be better off on their own. They buy cheap votes with silly economic policies like bedroom tax refunds and free hospital parking while dithering on the difficult things like ffa , currency , subsidies , shale etc

They play an easy game and I'm surprised someone as sharp as you can't see it - in fact I think you do but just likearguing and after all why not as that's what we're all doing here

I agree with what you write but I still can't resist calling that post you made as potty! (joke/analogy)

But seriously, I also think that racist is not exactly the right word to use, although jingoistic feelings come from the same stable.

It's a natural human reaction, to be drawn to the mother, the family, the neighborhood, the village, and so on up to the nation and immediately the human race on Planet Earth. With that togetherness comes the primitive survival instinct of being wary, even antagonistic, to "them over there". It's a measure of maturity as to how much one can rise above such primiordial thinking.

skintmacflint

Shakethedisease wrote: »

This thread isn't about me. And I don't think I need lectured from a complete stranger on what I need to 'reflect' on. Thanks all the same.

Concentrate on the thread content rather than me. Flattering though it is that you want to know so much more about me. It's hardly appropriate on a thread about Scottish politics.

Didn't think you'd want to explain the reasons behind changing from a Lib Dem voter into a die hard SNP voter. Rest assured policies of free Uni tuition, frozen council tax and all the other little freebies, don't explain it.

Nor how fairly recently SNP converted voters are now so full of petty grudge and grievance on behalf of Scotland and what it's tax revenues are spent on. To the extent they would suggest the minute thei minute oil runs out in Scotland , it will be thrown out the UK.

Particularly when the tax revenues Scotland generates overall don't go anywhere near covering the money it spends, and certainly nowhere near the money it wants to spend to garner further support.

Unless of course Sturgeon reveals that secret SNP policy are keeping up their sleeves for Independence Day, on how to grow your economy faster than China in 1 easy lesson.

.string.

@Shakey - so it seems that there is some sort of skew towards the left in SNP voting patterns. If I understand you correct, you assign recent electoral successes by the SNP to a growing political awareness in Scotland being comfortable with Scottish Independence.

That's a possibility of course, but there may also be personal economic thinking behind it too. Personal economic gain is a powerful force and in times of "austerity" people can put their faith into a new way of doing things, and maybe that is what motivates people to vote for the SNP, namely that maybe austerity would go away if everything was "fairer". That brings on the socialistic side of things.

As you say, it's arguable what these terms mean. Compared with the 3rd world we are all in clover, and probably also compared to Greece; in that context we could well ask "what austerity"? Is it fair that A has more money than B, or is it fair that A is forced to give 50% of what that earn to B? Both A and B can make their own cases.

Whether the SNP can persuade the Scots that they will be better of with indy or not will, I think, lie mainly with the percieved economic reality. The Devolution Settlement will play a big part in that; ultimately it will depend on whether we (all) get good value from the Union and the Nationalist issue, while still there and motivating the SNP, is something around the edges (IMHO of course). The UK Government recognise this, In due, and needs the funding to do it, which is one reason why FFA was never on the cards.

As said many times the SNP counter is to sow division and, do their not-quite-racist whinge project, and to persuade Scots that any increase in living standards is a result of their efforts and not the Union framework.

Dansmam

There is a fair number of people who think a skew to the left would right some wrongs. These threads don't attract the selfless crew who run so many of the support services the country relies on. If it's up to you lot any idea the community can save services money is so far up the spot it's out of sight. That's another bright idea gone WI, scours, brownies etc and Mr Cameron x

Mistermeaner

So...... igas and ineos March on with approval of bond holders, rouk and cons proceed with edf and Chinese on nuclear, and oil remains low even while Iranian and Libyan output is limited.

Low and beyond the snp have left the shale ban off the agenda for the October conference.

Are they finally facing up to economic reality and how will this be received by their supporters.

It's tough when your in 'power'

.string.

Mistermeaner wrote: »

So......

Low and beyond the snp have left the shale ban off the agenda for the October conference.

Are they finally facing up to economic reality and how will this be received by their supporters.

It's tough when your in 'power'

Sounds good - ducking an issue can damage a party.

Seems like a plan!

.string.

Dansmam wrote: »

There is a fair number of people who think a skew to the left would right some wrongs. These threads don't attract the selfless crew who run so many of the support services the country relies on. If it's up to you lot any idea the community can save services money is so far up the spot it's out of sight. That's another bright idea gone WI, scours, brownies etc and Mr Cameron x

Wow - That came from "Left Field"!

Thrugelmir

Dansmam wrote: »

There is a fair number of people who think a skew to the left would right some wrongs.

What's changed is that they are comfortably middle class not working class as their forefathers once were.

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

Didn't think you'd want to explain the reasons behind changing from a Lib Dem voter into a die hard SNP voter. Rest assured policies of free Uni tuition, frozen council tax and all the other little freebies, don't explain it.

It's not that interesting to be honest. I just wasn't very interested in politics. Moving about a lot with husband in armed forces, working and looking after my young children meant I didn't have a great deal of time for it. I didn't vote at all in many elections ( was barely worth registering before we moved again ).
I got caught up with Clegg-mania in 2010 I think. And it's only now looking back, I can see just how very 'media driven' my views were. And I didn't give the SNP a second thought back then... because they never appeared in the media ( while I lived in England), or any leaders debates.

It was the 2011 Scottish elections that really sparked my interest. I had been disappointed by the Lib Dems in coalition. I voted SNP. And then all the debate started raging about the referendum/would it be held/would devo max be on the ballot/what the date would be etc etc. I took part here in a few threads as an 'undecided' and as someone who favoured much more in the way of further powers to the Scottish government, rather than full independence.

Over time, I gradually changed my views. And once devo-max was taken off the ballot paper. After a period of refection, and reading everything I could find on the pertinent issues surrounding the debate, ( including several heated ones on this forum ). I decided that on balance and weighing things up. I would be voting Yes.

I joined the SNP as a member a few days after the No vote. I have no regrets. And I would vote Yes again, given the opportunity. It was a gradual journey. And one I think, is quite common to a lot of Scots voters over the last few years. We remain politically engaged, and much, much more aware of media and possible agenda's designed to sway opinion.

Far from being 'deluded' and 'manipulated' into voting SNP. I'd say, that exactly the opposite is a much truer reflection with many Scots these days. Certainly compared to 2010... and my pretty much completely uninformed, 'feel good' vote. Driven by watching a few hours of some man on the telly who 'sounded nice'. .

Nor how fairly recently SNP converted voters are now so full of petty grudge and grievance on behalf of Scotland and what it's tax revenues are spent on. To the extent they would suggest the minute thei minute oil runs out in Scotland , it will be thrown out the UK.

Not thrown out. Just encouraged to have another referendum.

Particularly when the tax revenues Scotland generates overall don't go anywhere near covering the money it spends, and certainly nowhere near the money it wants to spend to garner further support.

Unless of course Sturgeon reveals that secret SNP policy are keeping up their sleeves for Independence Day, on how to grow your economy faster than China in 1 easy lesson.

I think re taxes, the same is true of the UK as a whole. The UK borrows to cover it's shortfall.