Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

Sorry the only people trying to rewrite history here are SNP and many of their supporters still living in the dream bubble. Unfortunately including you it would appear.

And now we're back to that old chestnut, the press and TV bias. Lol. Next will be my age group are incapable of using the internet. Do admit to having problems with this IPad predictive test mind you.

Both Salmond and Sturgeon argued this very point on live TV debates, various meetings with business leaders, not to mention campaigners on my doorstep.

Fact still stands the info was widely out there, and a decision was taken regardless.

Only I didn't mention bias in my post did I ? I mentioned headlines. If you can find one that deals with the risks of a UK EU exit after a No vote then good luck with that. You won't.

Now I don't mind arguing points. But not things I haven't said. As for 'dream bubble's'..I made up my mind which way to vote on the same the basis you made yours up on. I respect your view. And at least I'm not having to vote for someone I don't really want to vote for.. soley in order to keep someone else out. To me that's pretty sad.. but that's your choice.

As Generali says, ( before he goes off on another post about them anyway *rolls eyes* ) and I have done time and again, the referendum is over, done and dusted.

SNP are looking good in the polls, so far, though for May.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Well thankfully the vast majority of Scots refused to vote in favour of the core aim of the SNP. As many imaginative ways as they look to redo it, the referendum is done and dusted and we can put aside their divisive schemes for a generation or a lifetime.

Anything else is just bluster.

I don't think looking for further powers/FFA/Devo-Max after a No vote is just 'bluster'.. when even those at Conservative Home are floating the idea. Reality hitting hard eh ?

It is easy to see why the SNP would not want to play into Labour’s hands by muting a deal with the ‘hated Tories’. But there is already more potential for a deal here than meets the eye.
The Scottish Conservatives’ Strathclyde Commission was the most radical set of options produced by any of the unionist parties in advance of the Independence Referendum last year.
Its central idea – full devolution of fiscal powers on income taxes – made Labour and the Liberal Democrats reform plans pale into insignificance. Forget the Vow or the Vow Plus: Strathclyde’s ideas gave Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Tories the clearest campaign message on the Unionist side last year. In ways, it went even further than the Smith Commission itself.
While the concept of EVEL works for, say, the Daily Mail brilliantly, it will only serve to benefit the SNP during the campaign. It is already doing so. And Labour remains without an effective answer to the West Lothian question. As Daniel Hannan argued on these pages recently, a federal UK now makes some considerable sense. This big idea should make its way into the Conservative manifesto.
But I fear it won’t. If Devo Max had been on the ballot paper in September last year, it would have won hands down. That said, I think it is increasingly the choice that may keep David Cameron in Downing Street. And I think we had better start preparing for that.

http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2015/02/iain-anderson-a-conservative-snp-deal-may-be-the-only-option-for-both-parties.html

ruggedtoast

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Please, try and be honest with yourself. When it came to the EU and the Scottish referendum.. the only thing that was splashed all over newspapers, tv another outlets, headline after headline... was that a Yes vote meant Scotland leaving the EU and the consequences of that. ( I disagreed but no shock there ).

Even here, where I frequently tried to push the fact that a No vote would mean uncertainty because there may be an in/out referendum to come wasn't taken very seriously. It was ALL about Scotland being 'kicked out'. Ask string, because he and I went back and forth many times on this issue.

The newspapers weren't interested in what the SNP had to say on EU membership.. only what Barroso and anyone official from Spain thought.

Let's not try and rewrite recent history here. It was 'Vote Yes and out of the EU you go'.... not 'Vote No, and mabye out of the EU you go'.

I notice that you Yessers all seem to be harbouring the assumption that No voters votes were somehow invalid because they all had all decided to vote No based on logic and reason. Whereas the flag waving half naked covered in woad brigade should have had double votes because they were voting 'from the heart'.

Again, its the true Scotsman vs the lily livered milquetoast meme. It's tired and old and if I were a No voting Scot I would be bored of it.

Everyone chooses their political affiliation based on some kind of logical assumption as to what chain of events they want to influence. Your problem (if I may collectivise you), is that far more people in Scotland decided they wanted to retain the status quo than wanted to take an impulsive decision to shore up some feeling of inadequacy in their own psyche.

Lets have a look at good old Maslow:



Put simply, you lot wanted a Yes vote because you are lacking in Belonging, Esteem and Self Actualization. You feel unfulfilled and angry at the world and believe English meddling in your lives is to blame. You consequently believe Scottish independence will actuate these three vectors.

No voters however, believe the bottom parts of the pyramid (and to an extent the middle part) are under threat from independence.

According to Maslow the bottom always wins out over the top. These people were far more concerned about paying their mortgage and having a pension than they were about having a new passport.


Why? Well, its down to demography of course. People who are poorer, younger, recent immigrants themselves or already on benefits (all good Yes voting stock according to the SNP) are anecdotally at least, not especially worried about macro economic changes because they cant imagine independence could possibly be seismic enough to jeopardize their relatively small demand on the system.

Once those people are older with families and jobs they worked for though, and its a completely different story. If you have worked your way up to a middle class life, you have a kid and a mortgage and some grinning chap rings your bell covered in Yes badges demanding independence followed by large scale wealth redistribution, then what that person is asking for is simply terrifying to you, regardless of how Scottish you do or dont feel.

The Yes camp never seemed to have any understanding of theories of motivation, and still don't. For all the Project Fear derision, the No camp understood it very well.

elantan

not all Yessers Rugged... And you really need to get your head around the fact that it isnt about England and the English ... I know you might want it to be and I understand it fits some desire in you to think you are so important in other peoples lives ... But you really are not ... Its about the people of Scotland and what they want ... No one else

Shakethedisease

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Put simply, you lot wanted a Yes vote because you are lacking in Belonging, Esteem and Self Actualization. You feel unfulfilled and angry at the world and believe English meddling in your lives is to blame. You consequently believe Scottish independence will actuate these three vectors.

Ha ha nice try. I guess at the end of the day..whatever I am, and however unfulfilled, and anger fueled my sad little life is...That I can count myself very lucky I'm not reduced, just yet, to pointlessly and repeatedly re-arranging sarcastic, amusing the first time, but less so the third.. topic titles in order to amuse myself and garner some attention from someone, anyone for doing so.

I'm sure there's a wikipedia entry somewhere for that too.

If you have worked your way up to a middle class life, you have a kid and a mortgage and some grinning chap rings your bell covered in Yes badges demanding independence followed by large scale wealth redistribution, then what that person is asking for is simply terrifying to you, regardless of how Scottish you do or dont feel.

ps Five kids, husband, small mortgage, grandchild, tax bill that would curl your toes ( it did mine ) ...a grinning chap in Yes badges terrifying me ? No, because I am the danger, I AM the one who knocks !

elantan

Love the BREAKING BAD quote shake ... my fave programme of all time

skintmacflint

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Only I didn't mention bias in my post did I ? I mentioned headlines. If you can find one that deals with the risks of a UK EU exit after a No vote then good luck with that. You won't.

Now I don't mind arguing points. But not things I haven't said. As for 'dream bubble's'..I made up my mind which way to vote on the same the basis you made yours up on. I respect your view. And at least I'm not having to vote for someone I don't really want to vote for.. soley in order to keep someone else out. To me that's pretty sad.. but that's your choice.

As Generali says, ( before he goes off on another post about them anyway *rolls eyes* ) and I have done time and again, the referendum is over, done and dusted.

SNP are looking good in the polls, so far, though for May.

Seriously Shakey, I give up. So what were you implying then. That the only info my age group and other similar voters can assimilate is headlines in the papers and on TV?

Dont pretend you respect my viewpoint either, because you obviously don't. Nitpicking into reasons for a Neverendum based on the result of an EU vote on your part, would indicate the opposite to me. Like Sturgeon your words of respect for people like me , are just empty words falling on deaf ears.

I don't disagree they're doing well in the polls. So will leave it at that, where you're concerned for now.

skintmacflint

elantan wrote: »

Love the BREAKING BAD quote shake ... my fave programme of all time

Hope it lives up to it's reputation , just bought the box set based on my grandsons great reviews.

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

Seriously Shakey, I give up. So what were you implying then. That the only info my age group and other similar voters can assimilate is headlines in the papers and on TV?

Mabye you should give up. Because you're quoting yourself. I haven't said anything to you about your age group ( apart from to assume you were in the older age group earlier on in the thread, that's all ).. And nothing at all about waiting for your age group to 'die off'.. you said it. I'd never in a million years wish or say anything along those lines.. to anyone, not even online to a stranger. Yet you seem to have no problem at all attributing them to me.

I pointed out that 99.9% of traditional media headlines concerning the ref and the EU were 'vote Yes, Scotland out of Eu'. That's all, because its the truth. If you found info elsewhere to counter that.. then you were reading pro-indy websites not well, if at all covered in the mainstream media sphere. Fair enough.

I have no concerns one way or the other for any 'age group'. But I think you may do.

Dont pretend you respect my viewpoint either, because you obviously don't. Nitpicking into reasons for a Neverendum based on the result of an EU vote on your part, would indicate the opposite to me. Like Sturgeon your words of respect for people like me , are just empty words falling on deaf ears.

I do respect your viewpoint. I don't agree with it. But I've certainly never accused you of being in some sort of 'dream bubble' or 'brainwashed' for voting the way you intend to have I ? I keep having to go back to referendum arguments because you and others keep bringing them up. It's a widely held view, that an ( unlikely) out vote by England, but an in vote in Scotland would trigger a set of consequences, that would result in another independence ref. You may disagree with it.. but it's there, and it IS a general assumption. It's not 'nit-picking' to point that out to you.

I don't disagree they're doing well in the polls. So will leave it at that, where you're concerned for now.

Yes mabye you should take a break. Go and watch those Breaking Bad dvd's.. you'll love them. We got through about 3 episodes a night when we discovered the series. Brilliant stuff. Enjoy !

zagubov

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Mabye you should give up. Because you're quoting yourself. I haven't said anything to you about your age group ( apart from to assume you were in the older age group earlier on in the thread, that's all ).. And nothing at all about waiting for your age group to 'die off'.. you said it. I'd never in a million years wish or say anything along those lines.. to anyone, not even online to a stranger. Yet you seem to have no problem at all attributing them to me.

I pointed out that 99.9% of traditional media headlines concerning the ref and the EU were 'vote Yes, Scotland out of Eu'. That's all, because its the truth. If you found info elsewhere to counter that.. then you were reading pro-indy websites not well, if at all covered in the mainstream media sphere. Fair enough.

I have no concerns one way or the other for any 'age group'. But I think you may do.

I do respect your viewpoint. I don't agree with it. But I've certainly never accused you of being in some sort of 'dream bubble' or 'brainwashed' for voting the way you intend to have I ? I keep having to go back to referendum arguments because you and others keep bringing them up. It's a widely held view, that an ( unlikely) out vote by England, but an in vote in Scotland would trigger a set of consequences, that would result in another independence ref. You may disagree with it.. but it's there, and it IS a general assumption. It's not 'nit-picking' to point that out to you.

Yes mabye you should take a break. Go and watch those Breaking Bad dvd's.. you'll love them. We got through about 3 episodes a night when we discovered the series. Brilliant stuff. Enjoy !

Even better, Better Call Saul is on Netflix so I'm gonna watch it.

My explanation on another thread that there are obvious cynical reasons why unionist media are bigging up the scale of the "SNP surge" seems to be coming true.
"Labour cut poll lead by half!" How humbling for the SNP!:rotfl:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-labour-cuts-snp-poll-lead-by-half-1-3685270