Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

antrobus

CLAPTON wrote: »

The density argument may well have some merit in scotland, the SW, parts of Wales, the lake district, Yorkshire etc and it is reasonable to have a formula that takes both the number of people and special circumstances into account.
However no-one serious (i.e. non Scots) actually believe that the £3000 per scots family is other than a Labour, Tory, LibDEm (Barnett) bribe.

Public services cost more to deliver in certain areas of the country. It would be the case that Scotland 'needs' more money, to deliver the same level of service as England.

But in Wales for example, they think that they don't get enough money to meet their needs, and that the Scots only need an extra £3 billion or so, and that the remaining £4 billion is a subsidy. Obviously the Welsh think that if the Govt stopped paying that £4 billion, they's be able to afford to pay the Welsh the extra few quid that they need.

antrobus

CLAPTON wrote: »

My all means have a proper formula worked out but not one based on corrupt bribe.

There are three things everyone should know about the Barnett formula

1. It wasn't invented by someone called Barnett
2. It is not responsible for the disparity in public spending between Scotland and the rest of the country
3. It will over the long term, remove that disparity

Enterprise_1701C

antrobus wrote: »

There are three things everyone should know about the Barnett formula

1. It wasn't invented by someone called Barnett
2. It is not responsible for the disparity in public spending between Scotland and the rest of the country
3. It will over the long term, remove that disparity

So it has nothing to do with Joel Barnett who actually devised it?

This is how it works.

The Barnett formula dictates the level of public spending in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and is based on the population of each nation and which powers are devolved to them.

They each receive greater public expenditure per head than England under the formula.
Why was it created?


The Barnett Formula was designed as a temporary measure but has lasted for 30 years.

Lord Barnett, then the Labour chief secretary to the Treasury, drew up a system for the division of public spending in 1978 partly to settle rows with other Cabinet ministers about spending allocations, and partly to allow for Scotland's larger physical area, lower average incomes and its particularly acute needs in health care and housing.


Why is it controversial?


The formula was relatively uncontroversial at its origins, but friction has arisen as the wealth gap between Scotland and England has closed.

While the annual increase in Scotland's allocation is falling, the historical disparity created in 1978, and Scotland's increasing prosperity have meant the apparent generosity of the Treasury towards Scotland has persisted.

Public spending being 19 per cent higher in Scotland than in England has inevitably resulted in the formula becoming controversial

What did Lord Barnett think about it?

Lord Barnett never intended his formula to last for 36 years. In fact he described it as a "terrible mistake" during the Scottish referendum.

He said it had become a "national embarrassment" and that he felt ashamed his name was still associated with it.

Lord Barnett, who died aged 91 in November last year, told The Telegraph: "It is unfair and should be stopped, it is a mistake. This way is terrible and can never be sustainable, it is a national embarrassment and personally embarrassing to me as well.

"If we want to give them some money after devo-max OK, but do it honestly and openly. Not by doing so under the table like this."

An extra £1,623 per head, or 19 per cent, is given to Scotland compared to England.

In 2013 Scotland got £10,152 per head, Wales got £9,709 and England got £8,529.



Whilst it may not be entirely down to the Barnett Formula, it is still totally unfair.


Look out Scotland, FFA is coming your way and you will not like it.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Generali wrote: »

As an aside, it was very heartening to see that the Monster Raving Loony Party scored more seats that the NF and BNP combined.

Although a bit less heartening when you realise those BNP/NF votes mostly just transferred to UKIP...

Froggitt

tberry6686 wrote: »

example. a primary school in say Glasgow will have around 500 pupils, a primary school in parts of the highlands may have <10. Are you seriously trying to say that the cost of education for the 10 is even remotely close the the cost for the 500. Same goes for health care, road maintenance etc.

I live less than 15 miles from Westminster. Some kids near me get bussed 90 mins each way to their Comprehensive school (1,000 kids or so) as the one they wanted 10 minutes drive away is significantly over-subscribed.


Should we bring the schools to the village, or should we take the kids to the schools?

Froggitt

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Look out Scotland, FFA is coming your way and you will not like it.

Bring it on. Lets see what tough decisions Darling Nikki is going to have to make.

.string.

Froggitt wrote: »

Bring it on. Lets see what tough decisions Darling Nikki is going to have to make.

How to rationalise a deal with the wicked Tories?

tberry6686

Froggitt wrote: »

Bring it on. Lets see what tough decisions Darling Nikki is going to have to make.

Well I am Scottish, I live and work in Scotland and can't agree more. The sooner the 2 fish get seen for what they are (2 faced, lying, hypocrites that have caused more damage to their country than anyone else has ever managed to do) the better.

Sapphire

tberry6686 wrote: »

Well I am Scottish, I live and work in Scotland and can't agree more. The sooner the 2 fish get seen for what they are (2 faced, lying, hypocrites that have caused more damage to their country than anyone else has ever managed to do) the better.

Statements like this from a Scotsman (or woman) restore my faith in Scotland and the Scots. I always really liked the Scots, but due to the recent hostile anti-UK/specifically English rhetoric from the two fish and others like them, I have felt a growing dislike towards them. It is reassuring to hear that not everyone in Scotland feels the way they do. (I feel that sectarianism – as opposed to patriotism – is a massive danger to the world, as has been demonstrated countless times, and still is very much the case in places like the Middle East.)

Thank you.

Shakethedisease

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Look out Scotland, FFA is coming your way and you will not like it.

I don't think so. There will be an offer. But it's unlikely to be FULL fiscal autonomy or devo-max. Though they may try to pass it off as FFA.

And anyway, after a few years of the Tories, will no end in sight due to boundary changes, then EVEL.. will see support for independence shoot up I daresay.

There are rumours in Westminster that Cameron is considering a 'big offer' to the Scots, perhaps even something approaching full fiscal autonomy. Some Conservatives MPs are thought to favour this approach on the grounds that it would give the SNP 'enough rope to hang itself'...

..It seems most unlikely that the PM will introduce full fiscal autonomy because he has argued consistently against it in the past. He has always said that FFA might make Scotland effectively an independent country, and Cameron does not want to be the prime minister who presides over the break up of Britain.
Instead he intends to press ahead with plans to devolve income tax powers to Scotland and reduce the role of the Barnett Formula in determining Scottish public spending increases. This will have to involve Scottish MPs. They will need to use their influence on parliament's committees to ensure that Scotland does not lose out in this process....

... But no one should be in any doubt: EVEL within an unreformed unitary Westminster parliament will simply turn Scottish MPs into second class citizens.

...It may well be that this conjunction of circumstances - the Scottish landslide, the EU referendum, English Votes for English Laws - will generate an unstoppable momentum that will lead Scotland out of the United Kingdom.
History seems to be speeding up.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/in-the-face-of-anti-scottish-sentiment-stirred-by-the-right-wing-press-and-the-to.125590123