Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

kabayiri

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Its not bunkum, it's fact, you just don't like it

Incidentally, I recall much discussion about the deficit and the debt



Looks like Scotland deficit has overall been smaller as a percentage than the UK's.

Who's been building up the debt?

Both Scotland AND the rest of the Union. That's cleared than one up.

IveSeenTheLight

kabayiri wrote: »

Both Scotland AND the rest of the Union. That's cleared than one up.

LOL, ok walked into that one.

Clearly the UK deficit has been at a greater rate though

.string.

Rather than simply reacting to events, I think the next UK Government should be more proactive. But how? There is surely no appetite to draw out the process of Scottish Devolution but the SNP seem geared to argue for ever and blame the delay on Westminster inactivation.

So there seems to be a case for bringing this business to a head, forcing a decision.

It's not just the SNP either; I sense patience wearing thin on this side of the border and we all want to get on with our lives.


This post is aimed more at the non-SNP amongst us, a forerunner, as it were, of the situation the SNP may well face in the next Parliament.

Comments from the other Scottish posters are of course welcome.


Just suppose the UK Parliament have the following choice or, even, decided to hold their own referendum in Scotland.

It could ask the question:

The UK Government, taking into consideration the results of consultation with all Scottish Parties and the Smith Recommendations, proposes the two following options for Scotland within the United Kingdom:

A. Enhanced Devolution, as defined in (*)
or
B. Full Fiscal Responsibility (**)

(*) The detail of this option are contained in Bill #*
(**) The detail of this option are contained in Bill #**

The Referendum will be for all who claim Scottish as their primary nationality

Bill A is of course the Bill currently in progress

Bill B needs more explanation --- what I had in mind was something like:

o. Full tax-raising powers, excepting corporation tax, for all Residents
o. Powers to set the rate of tax, consistent with bands of variance decided by the UK Government
o. Borrowing Powers, with limits subject to the agreement of the UK Government with regard to overall debt and affordability.
o. Full responsibility for the repayment (on a per capita basis) of the UK National debt on a prescribed basis and timetable and payment of the interest of the outstanding debt.
o. Full responsibility for and funding of present and future Pensions for all Scottish Residents and those elsewhere who claim Scottish as their primary nationality
o. Full responsibility for and funding of Health and Welfare in Scotland
o. Full responsibilty for and funding of all Scottish Infrastructure Projects including roads, housing and services
o. etc.
o. Entitlement, on payment on a per capita basis of the actual total overall costs, to proportionate use of UK Institutions and UK national activities and services (e.g. Embassies, BBC, Tax collection, defence, Meterological Office, overseas aid, and overarching UK Goverment).
o. Acquiescence to the continuing use of UK defence and other facilities located in Scotland, including Trident and it's successors,
o Entitlement to the use of Sterling and it's underwriting by the United Kingdom and UK National Governments on payment of ... TBD
o. No subsidies from the UK



Well I could go on, any such Bill would be complex, I just want to dispel any thoughts that FFA or FFR can be a simple matter of just devolving "Economic Levers". A devolved Scottish Parliament cannot be allowed to decide its own debts, as the SNP would undoubtedly prefer, nor should there be any unnecessary duplication of infrastructure that is paid for by the UK Government just to satisfy Nationalist ambitions.

Froggitt

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Its not bunkum, it's fact, you just don't like it

Incidentally, I recall much discussion about the deficit and the debt



Looks like Scotland deficit has overall been smaller as a percentage than the UK's.

Who's been building up the debt?

Presumably with all the extra income slosh from Barnett, Scotland has a smaller deficit. And vice versa for UK.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Logically, how can you have a group leading any organisation whose primary aim is to destroy that organisation?

They won't be leading, they will be a small part of it. 40 or so MP's out of 650. Why do UKIP have MEP's ? <---- in order to have some measure of influence in a union protecting British interests, even if they no longer want to be part of it.

So by that token, UKIP are an illogical party ?

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

They won't be leading, they will be a small part of it. 40 or so MP's out of 650. Why do UKIP have MEP's ? <---- in order to have some measure of influence in a union protecting British interests, even if they no longer want to be part of it.

So by that token, UKIP are an illogical party ?

that's a good point: I like your equating UKIP with the SNP (but have you received permission from auntie Nicola for such heresy?)


did you ever say whether you thought the Barnett formula was unfair to Yorkshire (yes I know that is perceived to be unfair by some and it may or may not be phased out but it was your sense of fairness and sense of justice and equality I was seeking)

Enterprise_1701C

elantan wrote: »

but what everyone that is upset about needs to understand that the people we choose are the people we want to represent us... suck it up buttercup

and ermmmm nope the question regarding independence is the right of the people that want independence... by all means maybe England should have an independence referendum ... help yourselves

What about the right of the United Kingdom.

You want to vote on our laws yet you won't let us vote on whether we want the UK broken up.

elantan

, we do have a say on legislation that is passed and until very recently the SNP did not vote on any matters that were non Scottish... so maybe direct your anger at Scottish Labour who did ... the SNP have also stated they have no intention on voting on non Scottish interests, however, seeing as a lot of what gets decided for the residents of England has a direct impact on the residents of Scotland there wont be many items which wont be voted on by the SNP... I reckon Badger culling would be one though

and you do need to remember Scotland is part of the United Kingdom

the vote for independence last year was for the people of Scotland to decide if it wanted to remain as part of the UK ... it wasnt for the rest of the UK to decide if it wanted Scotland to remain part of it, ergo Scotland voted and the rest of the UK didnt

CLAPTON

elantan wrote: »

, we do have a say on legislation that is passed and until very recently the SNP did not vote on any matters that were non Scottish... so maybe direct your anger at Scottish Labour who did ... the SNP have also stated they have no intention on voting on non Scottish interests, however, seeing as a lot of what gets decided for the residents of England has a direct impact on the residents of Scotland there wont be many items which wont be voted on by the SNP... I reckon Badger culling would be one though

and you do need to remember Scotland is part of the United Kingdom

the vote for independence last year was for the people of Scotland to decide if it wanted to remain as part of the UK ... it wasnt for the rest of the UK to decide if it wanted Scotland to remain part of it, ergo Scotland voted and the rest of the UK didnt

it's quite right that many mainly English issues have effects on the other nations: this is a good reason why we should stay one nation and abolish the regional parliaments.


There is an excellent case why England, Wales and NI should have a referendum on becoming independent and to leave the UK. We could refuse to accept any debt on some faux logic and leave it all to the RoUK which is often called Scotland.

Got to be a winner.

elantan

Have a referendum if thats what your country wants, I certainly would recommend it ... but to say that the Uk should remain whole just because it means that that English issues have an effect on other areas is just a way of saying its too much hassle to give the people what they want, we should be working towards a country that the people want, not one that the politicians find easy to handle, we also have to recognise that areas of Britain think differently from other areas