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Problems with Lodger now more serious
TheFox30
Posts: 133 Forumite
Hi all
Apologies for creating another thread (I feel like I'm spamming the forum!) but I've now got a totally new problem with the lodger that I created a thread about a couple of days ago that I feel warrants it's own thread.
For those who haven't read it, here's the initial thread re some damage caused (I strongly suspect) by my lodger: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5142310
To add a bit of background info (that I didn't mention before as I didn't feel it was relevant), my lodger informed me a few weeks ago that due to him getting a pay cut at work, he was looking for somewhere cheaper and that, when he found somewhere suitable, he'd then give me his month's notice. As yet, this hasn't happened.
I gave him his month's notice by email this afternoon, but to avoid conflict, although I asked him about the damage, I didn't make the damage the reason. Instead, I told him that I'd had 2 other enquiries from people about renting a room (which is true). I told him that, in order to give potential new lodgers a specific date by which a room would be available, I'd decided to give him his month's notice now, rather than wait around for him to give me notice.
Specifically, this is what I said (with names changed and with earlier irrelevant paragraphs missed out): What's happened in the kitchen? I noticed yesterday that 2 of the doors to one of my kitchen units (the one with your pots and pans in) wouldn't open. On closer inspection, it appears that someone (either yourself or Fred) has fastened screws through the doors and into my kitchen units, before concealing the screws using polyfiller. I've removed the screws, as they shouldn't be there, meaning there's now 2 holes through the doors. Has this been done by yourself or by Fred?
As of today, I've decided to give you your month's notice. This email constitutes your notice and means that you'll move out no later than 30th January 2015. As per your contract, you'll return all keys and remove all your belongings by this date. The reason for this isn't because of the damage to the kitchen unit and it isn't because of anything you've done wrong (unlike with Fred and the lack of cleaning).
The reason is that I've had 2 other enquiries about renting a room since yesterday (it's normal to get a lot of enquiries around the turn of the year). To get a new housemate in, I need to be able to give potential housemates a specific date for when I'll have a room available. If I say to them that they'll have to wait for you to give your month's notice and that I don't know when this will be, in all likelihood, they'll go and find somewhere else. I'm sure you can appreciate that if I wait around for you to give your notice (as you said that you're looking for somewhere cheaper), I'm likely to miss out on getting someone else.
I was expecting him to email back with an explanation / apology for the thing in the kitchen, and to say that he understood my reasons for the month's notice. However, this is what I've had back in reply:
I have no idea what you are on about regarding the kitchen units? Before I left I put all my stuff in to my kitchen units and that's it. What screws are you refering too? It sounds like an accusation and for that reason I am not accepting your notice on the ground of unfair eviction without any reason (to highlight this again, you are accusing me for something I haven't done and I haven't got a clue about). Regarding what I said to you about me potentially moving out, this was dictated by the pay cut, which I explained to you. Moreover, I told you that I will let you know about any changes well in advance. I want to consult this situation with the Citizen Advice Bureau and the solicitor at my work place.
So as you can see, I've now got more of a situation than I anticipated. I haven't responded at all. I'm well aware that I don't have to give any reason for giving a lodger a month's notice to leave (I felt it polite to give an explanation) and so there is no such thing here as an 'unfair eviction'. However, I very much don't want him back in my house in any way. For one, I've got grounds to suspect he's damaged my property. For two, his rent's overdue (he normally pays cash on the 27th of every month but he isn't back in the country til this Saturday, so it hasn't been paid). For three, the aggressive and unpleasant tone of his email (although I'm well aware this isn't an actual offence).
My own intuition tells me that he shouldn't be coming back in my house, and that I could use the suspected damage to justify not giving any notice. I also suspect that his refusal to accept notice to leave could mean there's likely to be a breach of the peace, and for that I'd need Police attendance for him collecting his belongings and then going. Can anyone advise me if I've got this about right? (I've given notice to leave twice previously but never had to deal with this)
He's due back this Saturday (which is an additional pain for me as it's my birthday, and I've got family and friends round all day!). Can anyone advise me please on a course of action?
Apologies for creating another thread (I feel like I'm spamming the forum!) but I've now got a totally new problem with the lodger that I created a thread about a couple of days ago that I feel warrants it's own thread.
For those who haven't read it, here's the initial thread re some damage caused (I strongly suspect) by my lodger: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5142310
To add a bit of background info (that I didn't mention before as I didn't feel it was relevant), my lodger informed me a few weeks ago that due to him getting a pay cut at work, he was looking for somewhere cheaper and that, when he found somewhere suitable, he'd then give me his month's notice. As yet, this hasn't happened.
I gave him his month's notice by email this afternoon, but to avoid conflict, although I asked him about the damage, I didn't make the damage the reason. Instead, I told him that I'd had 2 other enquiries from people about renting a room (which is true). I told him that, in order to give potential new lodgers a specific date by which a room would be available, I'd decided to give him his month's notice now, rather than wait around for him to give me notice.
Specifically, this is what I said (with names changed and with earlier irrelevant paragraphs missed out): What's happened in the kitchen? I noticed yesterday that 2 of the doors to one of my kitchen units (the one with your pots and pans in) wouldn't open. On closer inspection, it appears that someone (either yourself or Fred) has fastened screws through the doors and into my kitchen units, before concealing the screws using polyfiller. I've removed the screws, as they shouldn't be there, meaning there's now 2 holes through the doors. Has this been done by yourself or by Fred?
As of today, I've decided to give you your month's notice. This email constitutes your notice and means that you'll move out no later than 30th January 2015. As per your contract, you'll return all keys and remove all your belongings by this date. The reason for this isn't because of the damage to the kitchen unit and it isn't because of anything you've done wrong (unlike with Fred and the lack of cleaning).
The reason is that I've had 2 other enquiries about renting a room since yesterday (it's normal to get a lot of enquiries around the turn of the year). To get a new housemate in, I need to be able to give potential housemates a specific date for when I'll have a room available. If I say to them that they'll have to wait for you to give your month's notice and that I don't know when this will be, in all likelihood, they'll go and find somewhere else. I'm sure you can appreciate that if I wait around for you to give your notice (as you said that you're looking for somewhere cheaper), I'm likely to miss out on getting someone else.
I was expecting him to email back with an explanation / apology for the thing in the kitchen, and to say that he understood my reasons for the month's notice. However, this is what I've had back in reply:
I have no idea what you are on about regarding the kitchen units? Before I left I put all my stuff in to my kitchen units and that's it. What screws are you refering too? It sounds like an accusation and for that reason I am not accepting your notice on the ground of unfair eviction without any reason (to highlight this again, you are accusing me for something I haven't done and I haven't got a clue about). Regarding what I said to you about me potentially moving out, this was dictated by the pay cut, which I explained to you. Moreover, I told you that I will let you know about any changes well in advance. I want to consult this situation with the Citizen Advice Bureau and the solicitor at my work place.
So as you can see, I've now got more of a situation than I anticipated. I haven't responded at all. I'm well aware that I don't have to give any reason for giving a lodger a month's notice to leave (I felt it polite to give an explanation) and so there is no such thing here as an 'unfair eviction'. However, I very much don't want him back in my house in any way. For one, I've got grounds to suspect he's damaged my property. For two, his rent's overdue (he normally pays cash on the 27th of every month but he isn't back in the country til this Saturday, so it hasn't been paid). For three, the aggressive and unpleasant tone of his email (although I'm well aware this isn't an actual offence).
My own intuition tells me that he shouldn't be coming back in my house, and that I could use the suspected damage to justify not giving any notice. I also suspect that his refusal to accept notice to leave could mean there's likely to be a breach of the peace, and for that I'd need Police attendance for him collecting his belongings and then going. Can anyone advise me if I've got this about right? (I've given notice to leave twice previously but never had to deal with this)
He's due back this Saturday (which is an additional pain for me as it's my birthday, and I've got family and friends round all day!). Can anyone advise me please on a course of action?
0
Comments
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TheFox
If you don't mind, how old are you?
Why am I asking? because one day I was a Lodger....and....
it was something to do with the answer of my Q.
You don't need to answer if you don't wish to, but take it as an nnocent Q.0 -
Personally, I think that the minor suspected damage is nowhere near enough to justify demanding that he leave with no notice.
I also think it over the top for you to claim there's likely to be a breach of the peace, and you'd need Police attendance. just because he sent a !!!!ed-off sounding e-mail in response to your (to him unexpected) notice to leave.
Yes, you can tell him to go and he has no comeback.
But I suggest that, both morally and legally, you need to give him the month specified in the contract - however uncomfortable that might be for you.0 -
I assume the lodger doesn't have fixed term. Write back saying you have given reasonable notice, and the notice still stands. On 30th January, change the locks. Then E-mail stating they can collect their stuff by appointment."Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance" - Confucius0
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Personally, I think that the minor suspected damage is nowhere near enough to justify demanding that he leave with no notice.
I also think it over the top for you to claim there's likely to be a breach of the peace, and you'd need Police attendance. just because he sent a !!!!ed-off sounding e-mail in response to your (to him unexpected) notice to leave.
Ok, fair enough. As I said, I was half guessing what the procedure might be, as in the years I've been a landlord, I've never come across anything like this
I assume the lodger doesn't have fixed term
How do you mean by fixed term? He has a 12 month contract but with a clause inserted that this can be terminated early by either party so long as month's notice is given0 -
How do you mean by fixed term? He has a 12 month contract but with a clause inserted that this can be terminated early by either party so long as month's notice is given
OK, you have a break clause, so you're fine."Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance" - Confucius0 -
Email him and tell him you weren't directly accusing him and that if he knows nothing about it, that you accept that and will assume it was the other lodger and that nothing more will come of it. Then restate that this has nothin to do with the eviction and restate the notice.0
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TheFox
If you don't mind, how old are you?
Why am I asking? because one day I was a Lodger....and....
it was something to do with the answer of my Q.
You don't need to answer if you don't wish to, but take it as an nnocent Q.
Hmmmmm....I think my Q sounds too innocent.
From my own experience, sometimes some of the landlords can be real nightmares. At least in UK, the law is the rule, that is why you are here for serious advice or for fun. It happened to me in Canada. Canada sometimes looks like a "lawless country" specially when the nighmare landlords are women or elderly. Plus...Canada sits on big paranoia...the paranoia that everyone on earth is looking to go there, stay there and never leave. How many times I advised my friends there that their year is divided into 5 months frozen snow (2 moths are real killers) and the rest: warm summer with billions of biting mosquitoes.
No offence intended. HOW OLD ARE YOU Landlord?0 -
The contract requires a months notice. You've given him a months notice.
The contract does not require you to give him a reason, or to justify your action.
He can consult CAB/solicitor to his hearts content, that will not alter the facts above.
The fact you have friends/family round the day he returns may upset your birthday, but will mean you have support if he returns gunning for a fight.
If there is unpleasantness, that is the time to call the police (have the local station number handy - only use 999 if it is really urgent ie violent). If you have a local community officer, you could discuss this in advance so they are aware.
But unless/until he escalates things, you need to give him the month.
Why oh why do landlords give lodgers these rights?!!! I would never give a 'fixed term' (though that is meaningless really if the contract also specifies a notice period which can over-ride it), and I'd never give more than a week as notice either way.
As for the damage, clearly he is going to deny it, and as you admitted in your other thread, it could have been done by the other lodger.
So forget it. Apologise (to try to scale back the conflict) and focus on ensuring he leaves.0 -
Email him and tell him you weren't directly accusing him and that if he knows nothing about it, that you accept that and will assume it was the other lodger and that nothing more will come of it. Then restate that this has nothin to do with the eviction and restate the notice
Thanks, that sounds like good advice. I will take on a few more peoples' opinions before making any response but that does sound very logical and sensible.0 -
OP - I read your other thread and it does sound as if the doors were screwed shut on the kitchen cupboard by your current lodger. Irritating as it is, I think it is not worth getting into an argument about. I agree with the other posters that this is not bad enough to chuck him out with no notice.
I suggest you have a look at the Shelter website regarding the rights of lodgers (assuming you are in England) http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/sharing_and_subletting/lodgers
and
http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/sharing_and_subletting/excluded_occupiers
then respond to your lodger laying out the position as described by Shelter. No point in going into justifications or explanations as this will give the lodger ammunition to argue.
If he challenges you when he gets back simply restate your position that you have given him notice and you expect him to leave by 30 January. Again, don't get into explanations or justifications.It is a good idea to be alone in a garden at dawn or dark so that all its shy presences may haunt you and possess you in a reverie of suspended thought.
James Douglas0
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