Scottish independence

black_taxi_2

TNT POLL tonight


50/50

zeupater

kangoora wrote: »

... Every single new Scottish government department will have to be unpicked from the rUK systems, new DCs designed and implemented in Scotland, data exported (and validated every step of the way), original data deleted as rUK won't be allowed to retain data on Scottish people and I would bet the rUK government won't be interested in paying much of this cost.
I wouldn't be surprised for the cost of doing this to top £1bn quite easily, very quickly, and then climb up from there.

Hi

I'm in total agreement, but there's an important additional dimension being missed .... the critical path comprising - political decision making, the analysis, specification, ITT, procurement negotiation, implementation, prototype, data filtering, data conversion, data-load, acceptance testing,(re-)training and cutover (live) data-load .... all to be included in the list of milestones for each system, in each department, and even more importantly ... all separate projects to be run in parallel !!! ...

Of course, without immediate membership of the EU or EEA there will be DPA(1998) issues with the sharing of data which could necessitate every business in rUK to require any data partners north of the border to enter into separate confidentiality and data protection agreements ... realistically there would be a requirement for a Scottish parliament to enshrine the DPA provisions, amongst a myriad of other legislation, into the Scottish statute first, then join the EU or EEA or almost every affected business will be extremely annoyed ... so the politicians will like be very busy for a while ....

Then there's IPO on any existing UK software and supply provisions .... obviously, existing contracts would be between the UK government and the supplier and as such, the existing provisions will remain with the successor government (rUK), with the success of negotiation with a third party being entirely dependant on the ability/willingness of the supplier to deliver within required timescales, if at all ....

Fun, isn't it! .... who'd have guessed that something which looks so simple at first can become so complex ..... believe me, mergers are relatively easy, but splitting away a fully integrated division to create a standalone entity is something else .... done it a few times and therefore have a clue what's involved ...

System

I have no doubt there will be start-up costs but I maintain that many government functions are already separate and most of those that are not are not - aren't really worth keeping e.g. UKBA , DWP or weapons of mass destruction storage facilities.

I could enter into deep discussions on the issue but this section is related to savings and investments.

As for colsten, he/she managed to bring the independence debate into a thread about ATM availability on the banking section. Whilst, I'm not surprised he/she is here - I'm not fussed to throw more petrol on that fire...

kangoora wrote: »

Not only lawyers, providers of networks and computer systems infrastructure, programmers, network integrators will all be rubbing their hands with glee with $$ signs pinging in their eyes.
/QUOTE]

System

I don't think it's been suggested that Scotland and rUK will be functionally separate on Friday 19th September...

As for membership of the EU, it quite possible that Scotland might be the only part of the former UK as full member after another referendum. EFTA has already said it would welcome Scotland as a member which would result in being part of the EEA / EU single market.

Your understanding of the legal issues lacks understanding; Scotland already has an independent legal system. The DPA already applies in Scotland and would continue to apply unless specifically rescinded by an independent Scottish Parliament. As far as the DPA is concerned, a data centre in Scotland would be no different to one in Norwich or Norway being inside the single market of the EU/EEA.

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

I'm in total agreement, but there's an important additional dimension being missed .... the critical path comprising - political decision making, the analysis, specification, ITT, procurement negotiation, implementation, prototype, data filtering, data conversion, data-load, acceptance testing,(re-)training and cutover (live) data-load .... all to be included in the list of milestones for each system, in each department, and even more importantly ... all separate projects to be run in parallel !!! ...

Of course, without immediate membership of the EU or EEA there will be DPA(1998) issues with the sharing of data which could necessitate every business in rUK to require any data partners north of the border to enter into separate confidentiality and data protection agreements ... realistically there would be a requirement for a Scottish parliament to enshrine the DPA provisions, amongst a myriad of other legislation, into the Scottish statute first, then join the EU or EEA or almost every affected business will be extremely annoyed ... so the politicians will like be very busy for a while ....

Then there's IPO on any existing UK software and supply provisions .... obviously, existing contracts would be between the UK government and the supplier and as such, the existing provisions will remain with the successor government (rUK), with the success of negotiation with a third party being entirely dependant on the ability/willingness of the supplier to deliver within required timescales, if at all ....

Fun, isn't it! .... who'd have guessed that something which looks so simple at first can become so complex ..... believe me, mergers are relatively easy, but splitting away a fully integrated division to create a standalone entity is something else .... done it a few times and therefore have a clue what's involved ...

zeupater

Heng_Leng wrote: »

I don't think it's been suggested that Scotland and rUK will be functionally separate on Friday 19th September...

As for membership of the EU, it quite possible that Scotland might be the only part of the former UK as full member after another referendum. EFTA has already said it would welcome Scotland as a member which would result in being part of the EEA / EU single market.

Your understanding of the legal issues lacks understanding; Scotland already has an independent legal system. The DPA already applies in Scotland and would continue to apply unless specifically rescinded by an independent Scottish Parliament. As far as the DPA is concerned, a data centre in Scotland would be no different to one in Norwich or Norway being inside the single market of the EU/EEA.

Hi

I completely understand that, in the case of a yes vote, there is a proposed timetable between the referendum result and complete separation ... the question is whether the timetable is realistic when considering all of the issues at hand which are outside the control or financial constraints of an independent government, or even the ability of the supply base to deliver. Insisting that the Pound will be the currency and the BoE will be the central bank effectively removes the ability to borrow or spend at levels which fall much beyond current plans, therefore the total 'up-front' restructuring costs could be severely limited without reallocating funds from elsewhere ... of course, with a separate currency and central bank the expenditure would be completely down to national decision making, but then again, the money would need to be borrowed from the very markets which may just have seen a debt default ....

Considering the above, it's pretty plain to see that although it's not been "suggested that Scotland and rUK will be functionally separate on Friday 19th September...", there will need to be immediate Scottish state expenditure to prepare all departments for separation ... of course, this funding isn't sitting in a savings account anywhere, so where does it come from?, reallocation of planned expenditure elsewhere?, a government which can't effectively borrow because it doesn't effectively exist yet?, or mainly taken as a loan from the negotiating partner which has already been told that the repayment will be defaulted ? ...

Regarding legislation, is it a case that all UK legislation automatically applies to Scotland and therefore would at least need to be formally adopted by a new government in the case of separation ?? .... surely there would at least be a requirement to 'nod' all necessary/required Acts through, else, without national legislation in place, what law does the 'independent legal system' base their decisions on, apart from law in another country .... If it is to be a case of 'on the nod', would there be objection and debate on all, or even part, of the legislation to be accepted ?? .... I'm an outsider & I don't know, but if I wasn't I'd certainly look to understand the proposals and consider the implications and timescales involved ...

Regarding "Norwich or Norway ", of course, an international 'safe harbour' argument could apply, but that would likely be down to a great deal of discussion & negotiation with various parties. The only sure solution would be for the designate nation to apply to join the relevant clubs before it actually exists which effectively places more 'up-front' roadblocks in the way .... it's simply another example of a potential point-of-failure with massive implications on businesses and organisations requiring cross border data sharing ....

InvestInPoker

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11059895/More-than-100-Scottish-business-leaders-wanted-to-sign-pro-UK-letter-but-feared-SNP-backlash.html

I have family who run business in Scotland and they will be hit very hard by independence. I mean cmon, I don't believe Aberdeen Asset Management's "neutral" public standpoint. The SNP's lies and bullying are disgusting. I know I cant stand a bully.

System

Firstly, any debt issued by the UK treasury is the legally the responsibility of the same. It has already confirmed it will meet any repayments, so no default.

Independence wouldn't invalidate any legislation already passed; it would simply remove the ability of Westminster to amend, repeal or pass new legislation in Scotland. For an idea, look at the Canada and Australia Acts passed in the 80s.

As part of the single EU/EEA market firms operate across the entire market without special provisions or negotiations. Safe Harbors etc relate specifically to EU / US agreements.

zeupater wrote: »

of course, with a separate currency and central bank the expenditure would be completely down to national decision making, but then again, the money would need to be borrowed from the very markets which may just have seen a debt default ....

Considering the above, it's pretty plain to see that although it's not been "suggested that Scotland and rUK will be functionally separate on Friday 19th September...", there will need to be immediate Scottish state expenditure to prepare all departments for separation ... of course, this funding isn't sitting in a savings account anywhere, so where does it come from?, reallocation of planned expenditure elsewhere?, a government which can't effectively borrow because it doesn't effectively exist yet?, or mainly taken as a loan from the negotiating partner which has already been told that the repayment will be defaulted ? ...

Regarding legislation, is it a case that all UK legislation automatically applies to Scotland and therefore would at least need to be formally adopted by a new government in the case of separation ?? .... surely there would at least be a requirement to 'nod' all necessary/required Acts through, else, without national legislation in place, what law does the 'independent legal system' base their decisions on, apart from law in another country .... If it is to be a case of 'on the nod', would there be objection and debate on all, or even part, of the legislation to be accepted ?? .... I'm an outsider & I don't know, but if I wasn't I'd certainly look to understand the proposals and consider the implications and timescales involved ...

Regarding "Norwich or Norway ", of course, an international 'safe harbour' argument could apply, but that would likely be down to a great deal of discussion & negotiation with various parties. The only sure solution would be for the designate nation to apply to join the relevant clubs before it actually exists which effectively places more 'up-front' roadblocks in the way .... it's simply another example of a potential point-of-failure with massive implications on businesses and organisations requiring cross border data sharing ....

rpc

scott_lithgows wrote: »

See if its NO,can we actually get a surface ship up here?


The Russians like to test our defences every so often,they fly 2 planes which are chased by the RAF or they send 2 destroyers which anchor just outside Scots territorial waters for 24 hours until a RN ship arrives from the south of England.

Aside from the fact that we have surface ships (just smaller ones more suited to littoral patrols), your first choice of platform to take on a Ruskie destroyer would sit a few thousand feet above the water.

You do know that sailing time from Portsmouth (current arrangement) is less than the sailing time from Faslane (proposed arrangement)? It is a loooong way over the top.

Heng_Leng wrote: »

Firstly, any debt issued by the UK treasury is the legally the responsibility of the same. It has already confirmed it will meet any repayments, so no default.

No technical default (leaving aside the bits of international law that stipulate per capita split of debt as a starting point) but markets don't care about technical correctness. Ratings agencies have said that refusal to take on debt would lead to a default premium being applied. So we won't have defaulted technically, but the world will treat us as if we have.

Heng_Leng wrote: »

I have no doubt there will be start-up costs but I maintain that many government functions are already separate and most of those that are not are not - aren't really worth keeping e.g. UKBA , DWP or weapons of mass destruction storage facilities.

You don't think we will need to secure our borders or adminster the welfare state? !!!!!!?

And they aren't separate in Scotland - they are satellites of the main UK function. They can't operate independently and while you have the staff and the offices you also need the IT - that's the expensive bit.

silverwhistle

zeupater wrote: »

I'm in total agreement, but there's an important additional dimension being missed .... the critical path comprising - (SNIP)

but splitting away a fully integrated division to create a standalone entity is something else .... done it a few times and therefore have a clue what's involved ...

Sounds like you indeed have. Just to add that the critical path is never a straight one either, it tends to be a bit iterative and goes round in circles before resuming its course, possibly in a different direction...

InvestInPoker