Just need to check ....

ampersand

ILM - initial exchange, but nothing further since. Have checked junk.

I-LOV-MONEY

See PM, just sent !

I-LOV-MONEY

I am sorry I have not been able to update you recently regarding my parking dispute. Things seem to be moving relatively quickly and I will obviously need to redact some of the references.

I finally got a response from the Property Management Officer. There is a further response from him to my comments and I am about to reply to him again!

I think to make it easier I will use (at least) two posts here to publish it.

[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thank you very much for the email below[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please accept my apologies if you hadn’t received a response to your email of the 25th July this was partly due to volume of information received from our residents and the many similar questions about detail of the car park management service[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As a result I responded to these questions in my second letter last week[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The questions that you have asked about consultation I have responded to in my recent letter informing all residents as follows[/FONT]
It is important to note that the free car park management service that I have proposed does not fall under any recoverable service charge element that you are required to pay for neither does it qualify for a Statutory Notice to be served for consultation under Section 20 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 as amended by the Commonohold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002.
Whereby the Act states that your landlord is required to consult on any works or services that is likely to cost the leaseholder or freeholder over £250 e.g. Major Works or Cyclical redecoration or any Qualifying Long Term Agreements that is likely to run for more than 12 months and would cost a leaseholder or freeholder over £100 e.g. cleaning or gardening contract.
[FONT=&quot]I have also attached for your information a Leasehold Advisory Service booklet on landlord consultation[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In regards to the information about the car parking management, majority of those who responded were vehicle owners and out of 30 residents currently on the list only 3 have opposed the service.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You have mentioned below that you don’t understand what we hope to achieve by introducing car parking control, this is also a question that I covered in my July update to all residents, whereby I advised:[/FONT]
Use of the Car Park:
The car park is classed as part of the communal areas and the parking bays are not demised or allocated to any resident or home owner. This means that residents have a right of use of the car park to park vehicles, access your properties and other communal areas.
We also acknowledge that over the past few years we have received a high level of complaints from residents regarding the use of the car park by some residents who own multiple vehicles. Some of the concerns raised are as follows:
(1)The parking of up to 3 to 4 vehicles per household at any one time,
(2)The increasing number of untaxed vehicles on (name of road)

(3)The prolonged parking of un-roadworthy vehicles on (name of road) denying others the use of the said bays
(4)The alleged sale of vehicles from (name of road) car park.
Please note that the above are some of the issues that the London Borough of xx and our residents have asked us to investigate and resolve.
[FONT=&quot]I would also like to add that we are not only tackling the number of un-roadworthy or abandoned vehicles but also the sale of vehicles from (this road), this is a matter that we investigated with the Metropolitan Police ( Police Constable yy lead officer in the case ) in the last quarter of 2013.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have also been investigating another case of multiple vehicle sales since May/June 2014 whereby the resident admitted the sale of vehicles then retracted the statement a few days later as he demanded for the identities of those who reported him which I declined to comment on. He further stressed that he would park as many cars as possible and sell them whenever he feels like it as he is allowed to own as many cars as possible and sell them after using them for as long as 2years or short as a few months. ( A resident can own as many vehicles as possible and can sell them if they wish but not from our land or car park that they have Non-Exclusive use of)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When he became aware that such commercial activity is one of the reason why we are introducing car park management, he said he would lobby as many residents as possible to oppose the service.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is a clear breach of the lease and transfer of part documents to conduct such a business from the premises and the communal areas and as a landlord we have a duties to restore orderliness to any areas that suffers such.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Management Company) always seek to consult where possible and pay due regard to resident comments. There is however, no requirement through the lease or legislation for us to consult and it is at our discretion as the landlord that we implement parking management to comply with the terms of the lease as a response to adequate estate management.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In regards to visitors permits, I have mentioned in my letter that its use and issue will be subject to review as this is the main area of abuse whereby some may use it to park an extra vehicle or other use not prescribed by the car park owners(Management Company) However, as the VP’s are subject to review it is likely permanent VP’s can be issued to residents for 48hrs in any 7 day period ( as this is the main area of abuse, it will be monitored on a regular basis)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All emergency vehicles / Royal Mail that are engaged in a legal duty are not subject to parking permits on (this road) but tradesmen such plumbers, electrician and building contractors will require a permit. Please note that a grace period of up to 10 minutes is allowed at NHHO’s discretion .[/FONT]
You have said in your email that
“If necessary, I will tell visitors to park in (neighbouring road) and use the alleyways to walk through to (this road). If enough people do this, the residents there will complain and you will need to introduce parking management there, and so any alleged 'problem' just moves on.”
I have noted your comments above and I am sad to hear that you may seek if necessary, to encourage enough people to engage in actions solely with a view to generate complaints from residents, although residents and members of their household can access (this road) via the alley way linking it with (neighbouring road), I don’t understand why you would want to use this access to generate residents complaints . Having noted the comments that you have made, I also wish to remind you that all leaseholders and freeholders are responsible for the actions of members of their household, callers, friends or visitors to their property. In the original lease which the transfer of part document is bound by, it states
“ Not to commit or allow the leaseholder’s guests, lodgers, sub-tenants or members of the leaseholder’s household to commit on the premises or on any part of the common parts or in the vicinity or neighbourhood of the premises any act which cause a nuisance or disturbance to any persons or residents”
In response to your question about the Car Parking Management Company: [FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Would you please let me know on what basis they were appointed and was any research done into their methods of operation”. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Park Direct UK is currently providing a car park management service for a lot of (Management company) estates across London, although we use other firms, Park Direct UK is the only firm that we use that offers free residents and visitors parking permits and that is why we chose them for (this road).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Finally I wish to advise that if a vehicle fails to display a valid residents parking permit, visitors permit or abuses the use of any parking permit the car park management company will issue a ticket and the vehicle owner would have to resolve this matter with the car park management company, alternatively the vehicle owner can contact British Parking Association to appeal any such decision. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please note that due the street light works towards the end of the avenue we have pushed the commencement date to 11th September 2014[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Many thanks[/FONT]

My response


Thank you for your e-mail.
I am not disputing that under the Landlord and Tenant Act and Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act that you do not have to give Statutory notice to residents as there is to be no charge to residents. However your letter said “..we are considering car parking Control ..” , and “… I would be very grateful If you could provide me with your feedback ..” These statements suggest that you are are consulting the residents, however in your letter of 15 August you state “..it is courteous, respectful and good practice to inform residents and other service users of any new services or initiatives that may affect them “. This suggests that the decision had already been made.
You refer to “30 residents on the list” What list is this? You also state that only 3 have opposed the service. Did 27 agree with it? How many responses in total did you receive? Is this 30 part of the 107 properties you manage? Probably most properties have two people resident.
It maybe that in some cases two parents each have a car, and their children who live with them have a car each. Are they not permitted to park in the road they live in?
As I previously mentioned there are existing laws regarding untaxed and un-roadworthy vehicles. A Private Parking Company is not required for this. You could walk down the street and note the parked cars that are untaxed. However, are you aware that from 1 October 2014 paper tax discs will no longer need to be displayed on vehicle windscreens? Although this can be checked online, it would be extremely time consuming if you have to check every vehicle on the road. Obviously If they are un-roadworthy they would not have a MOT and therefore no tax, but as I said I wonder how you are going to check every vehicle? Do you really consider that if you found which vehicles were untaxed and the PPC were to put a notice of a charge on these vehicles, the owners would take any notice of it? It would take the involvement of the Local Authority and / or Police to have these vehicles removed after obtaining the details of the Registered Keeper from the DVLA.
I note that the Police were previously involved. What was the conclusion? Why did they not prosecute if the cars were illegal or people committing an illegal activity?
If you are aware that people are selling vehicles on the road, then you must presumably know who they are and can make contact with them to tell them that this is not permissible. If one resident is continuing to sell vehicles by owning many vehicles and then selling them on; and it is against the terms of the lease, surely a court order can be obtained to prevent him carrying on this activity. What would you expect a PPC to do that you cannot?
You say permanent VPs can be issued for a 48 hour period in 7 days. What is a friend or a relative should come to stay for a week? Where would you expect them to park their vehicle? If I had a few guests around for a party, would you be issuing each of them with VP? Else where would you expect them to park?
If we do not have a permanent VP to hand to a tradesman, do you expect me / them to pay £2 for the issue of a temporary ‘emergency’ permit? The fact that they have been called is because it is an emergency. If (Management Compnay) are to allow a 10 minute grace period, presumably to collect a permit, I am sure you will inform Park Direct UK of this, as it seems from the articles that I sent to you, they have been very quick to act within seconds of someone leaving a vehicle. You would need to have them provide evidence that they have given the correct observation period.
I have no intention in causing residents in(neighbouring road) to complain. However, this maybe a consequence of people not wishing to park in (this road) because of the parking controls. What is to stop anyone selling or abandoning cars using another road, such as (neighbouring road) to carry on?
I think you will find most PPC offer residents and visitors free parking permits. However they receive their income from people that don’t follow their rules and make a charge, which people don’t realise they cannot enforce. I wonder how many complaints you have received from people on other estates?
Should the PPC issue a ticket the Registered Keeper or the driver of the vehicle, if known (not always the Owner), would initially resolve the matter with the PPC, and after they reject the appeal (they always do!), the Registered Keeper or driver would take it to POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) and with the correct advice, available on many websites, more than likely win. Incidentally Park Direct UK Ltd are members of the BPA (British Parking Association). Approved Operators Scheme (AOS), Park Direct are not, and should they put up a sign that suggests they are, this would be actionable.
Regards


(his reply and my response follow in the next post !)

I-LOV-MONEY

I am sorry part 2 will have to follow tomorrow morning !

The_Deep

From the MA's reply, I gather that you live in a HA property, no doubt with a high proportion of HB tenants and riff raff among the residents as the car parking facilities are being abused.

The answer therefore seems to be not to oppose the MA installing a ppc, (not necessarily the one which they have selected), but to negotiate with them for a white list of cars, legitimately parked on the premises, and a black list of those who regularly abuse the facility. Obviously anyone selling cars for profit from the site needs special attention, and untaxed and abandoned cars removed.

A quick fix would be to number the spaces, and allocate a space to an individual flat, with a numbered permit for one car per flat, but if there are more flats than spaces this would not be possible.

Given the problem, and the type of tenants, I would say that you are fighting a losing battle here, and that you should be selfish and secure the best deal you can for yourself.

bazster

Exactly, a white list, plus visitors' permits valid for up to, say, 24 hours' parking, with the facility to apply by 'phone or online for longer periods (up to, say, 1 week). After all, they seem to have been quick enough to offer an online facility you have to pay for, so obviously technical capability is not a problem!

And if it's tenants causing problems by selling vehicles from the premises then they should deal with those tenants, not introduce a notorious predatory PPC to everyone's cost. As your management company man says, those tenants are in breach of their lease so there should be no problem in acting against them directly.

I know first-hand of the kind of bandit country you are describing and there is not a cat in hell's chance of the problem residents taking the slightest notice of a fake parking fine.

I-LOV-MONEY

When it comes down to it, parking is NOT a problem. Everybody finds a space. 99% of the time I can park outside my front door. Yes, there are a few people that misuse the system by dumping cars or selling them, but they are a very small minority.

It was discussed about having marked spaces, but that would then be difficult with multi-car households and also it seems it would be expensive to do. Everything is fine as it is !

(Part 2 to follow shortly!).

I-LOV-MONEY

Part 2 (his response)


[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your email[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I have responded to your queries in the order in which they have raised below[/FONT]


I am not disputing that under the Landlord and Tenant Act and Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act that you do not have to give Statutory notice to residents as there is to be no charge to residents. However your letter said “..we are considering car parking Control ..” , and “… I would be very grateful If you could provide me with your feedback ..” These statements suggest that you are are consulting the residents, however in your letter of 15 August you state “..it is courteous, respectful and good practice to inform residents and other service users of any new services or initiatives that may affect them “. This suggests that the decision had already been made.
You refer to “30 residents on the list” What list is this? You also state that only 3 have opposed the service. Did 27 agree with it? How many responses in total did you receive? Is this 30 part of the 107 properties you manage? Probably most properties have two people resident.
[FONT=&quot]The list I have referred to are of those who have made direct contact requesting for a parking permit and their properties fall within the 107 that I manage on (this road).[/FONT]
It maybe that in some cases two parents each have a car, and their children who live with them have a car each. Are they not permitted to park in the road they live in?
I agree that leaseholders and freeholders are entitled to the peace and quite enjoyment of their properties as advised in their lease, deed of covenants or transfer documents as they also covenant with the landlord to abide by the terms and conditions of their agreements . I also agree that private land owners and landlords also covenants with leaseholders and freeholders to manage and maintain the fabric and structure and other areas that constitute the common parts. The car park at (this road) is part of the external communal areas and it is private land, owned and managed by (Management Company) and home owners have a non-exclusive right to use this private land to park their vehicles and to access their property.
Therefore if (Management compnay) introduce an additional measure to further ensure the effective management of the car park or external communal areas then those that have non-exclusive use of the said private land are expected and are also encouraged to respect the measures that would further ensure the effective management of these areas. As its also expected that If one lives on a road managed by the local authority with parking control in place then those that live on that road and their visitors are expected to obtain a parking permit to park on the said road as advised by the local authority that owns that road and if they live on a private estate with a private car park that has parking control then the same approach and response is also expected.
As I previously mentioned there are existing laws regarding untaxed and un-roadworthy vehicles. A Private Parking Company is not required for this. You could walk down the street and note the parked cars that are untaxed. However, are you aware that from 1 October 2014 paper tax discs will no longer need to be displayed on vehicle windscreens? Although this can be checked online, it would be extremely time consuming if you have to check every vehicle on the road. Obviously If they are un-roadworthy they would not have a MOT and therefore no tax, but as I said I wonder how you are going to check every vehicle? Do you really consider that if you found which vehicles were untaxed and the PPC were to put a notice of a charge on these vehicles, the owners would take any notice of it? It would take the involvement of the Local Authority and / or Police to have these vehicles removed after obtaining the details of the Registered Keeper from the DVLA.
[FONT=&quot]I am aware of existing legislation regarding untaxed and un-roadworthy vehicles and I am also aware of the assistance available from statutory agencies such as the Police and Local Authority in these matters and I also strongly believe that having a proactive and effective action plan in place to work in partnership with existing laws and other outside agencies simply ensures a stronger and more reliable deterrent. We are looking to prevent incidents from occurring rather than waiting for an incident to occur on the premise that the existing laws and agencies would simply pick it up as it occurs, we have learnt from previous incidents and following my recent investigations into commercial activity on (this road), a proactive approach in dealing with this is a common sense way forward [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We would like to see the (this road) car park free from commercial activity, abandoned , un-taxed and un-roadworthy vehicles. Vehicles owners would think twice before they park without a permit in a car park that has parking control in place. We do have access to DVLA to enable us to confirm the status of a vehicle at anytime and this check can be carried out by NHHO or the parking management company. Our aim is not to penalise but to deter and prevent unacceptable behaviour and practices in and around the communal areas, surely an un-roadworthy vehicle would still be registered somewhere in the UK and as such vehicles are viewed as an obstruction on NHH land the registered owner is breach of their lease or transfer document and would be required to remedy the breach immediately, please see attached section of the original lease for (this road) that all deeds of covenants, title docs and TP1’s are bound by [/FONT]
I note that the Police were previously involved. What was the conclusion? Why did they not prosecute if the cars were illegal or people committing an illegal activity?
I understand that the activity in that period stopped or the perpetrators changed tact, I have also attached communication between (Management company) and the Metropolitan Police for your information. I must also mention that I have investigated alleged commercial activity involving 6 cars since May/June this year and those are the ones that we are aware of, it might also be worth knowing that I recently received information from several reliable sources about a silver S class Mercedes parked wide near (block of flats in this road) that suspected buyers have been viewing for a few days, its alleged that the owner lives near the beginning of (this road), it is this sought of audacious practice or car park mis-use and total disregard to others that we are trying to eliminate
If you are aware that people are selling vehicles on the road, then you must presumably know who they are and can make contact with them to tell them that this is not permissible. If one resident is continuing to sell vehicles by owning many vehicles and then selling them on; and it is against the terms of the lease, surely a court order can be obtained to prevent him carrying on this activity. What would you expect a PPC to do that you cannot?
If a leaseholder or freeholder is found in breach we would ensure the breach is remedied and we also view our introduction of a PPC as a deterrent to future or potential offenders. As I previously advised we would actually prefer that a breach or default does not occur in the first instance
I am puzzled as to what Parking Management has to do with residents putting out refuse, or securing the safety orderliness or cleanliness of the Building or the Common Parts ?
The section of the original lease that I sent to you gave refuse and safety as examples of issues that may lead the landlord to introduce added measures to ensure orderliness or cleanliness to the building or common parts of which the car park falls under common parts. So as we have had a long history of car park mis-use we are now introducing car parking control to ensure the orderliness and cleanliness of the car park
You say permanent VPs can be issued for a 48 hour period in 7 days. What is a friend or a relative should come to stay for a week? Where would you expect them to park their vehicle? If I had a few guests around for a party, would you be issuing each of them with VP? Else where would you expect them to park?
[FONT=&quot]Our main priority and duty is to our residents and the management of the estate, if one does not have enough visitors permits for guests and if they don’t want to obtain permits for them online then I would recommend that they inform their guest before hand that the car park is a private car and parking control is in place, this information would enable them to make a well informed decision before they park or it could help them they can make alternative arrangements.[/FONT]
If we do not have a permanent VP to hand to a tradesman, do you expect me / them to pay £2 for the issue of a temporary ‘emergency’ permit? The fact that they have been called is because it is an emergency. If NHHO are to allow a 10 minute grace period, presumably to collect a permit, I am sure you will inform Park Direct UK of this, as it seems from the articles that I sent to you, they have been very quick to act within seconds of someone leaving a vehicle. You would need to have them provide evidence that they have given the correct observation period.
[FONT=&quot]All vehicle users in the UK are aware that some roads and car parks may have parking control in place this includes contractors and tradesmen, as residents will be issued with one visitors permit, I believe this can be used in such instances when tradesmen arrive, if you contact us in advance we can also call through the vehicle details to the car park management company so that they are aware how long the contractor or tradesman would be there for.[/FONT]
I have no intention in causing residents in (neighbouring road) to complain. However, this maybe a consequence of people not wishing to park in (this road) because of the parking controls. What is to stop anyone selling or abandoning cars using another road, such as (neighbouring road) to carry on?
We will continue to use the resources available to us to tackle nuisance and other forms of anti-social behaviour on or around our estates and we would also work with other agencies to ensure that we adopt the best approach in dealing with matters like this
I think you will find most PPC offer residents and visitors free parking permits. However they receive their income from people that don’t follow their rules and make a charge, which people don’t realise they cannot enforce. I wonder how many complaints you have received from people on other estates?
One would anticipate teething problems in the early stages of a process or system and this gives us an opportunity to monitor our level of performance working in practice and I am please to advise that areas where we have introduced parking control have actually in effect reduced the amount of complaints we receive regarding the car park and external communal areas.
Should the PPC issue a ticket the Registered Keeper or the driver of the vehicle, if known (not always the Owner), would initially resolve the matter with the PPC, and after they reject the appeal (they always do!), the Registered Keeper or driver would take it to POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) and with the correct advice, available on many websites, more than likely win. Incidentally Park Direct UK Ltd are members of the BPA (British Parking Association). Approved Operators Scheme (AOS), Park Direct are not, and should they put up a sign that suggests they are, this would be actionable.
If a vehicle receives a ticket from the car park management company, the owner would have to liaise directly with them in addressing any issues arising

[FONT=&quot]Finally, I understand from some of your communications that you do not wish to be included in the parking control scheme but it is important to note that all we aim to achieve is orderliness in the car park by eliminating commercial activity, tackling un-roadworthy and untaxed vehicles as if we allow these issues to continue and only look to deal with them as they arise then it means we incur further cost that would have to be apportioned to residents, we would rather deter or prevent these issues from arising in the first instance as it helps to keep cost in dealing with them low. I would like to encourage you to obtain a free residents/visitors parking permit in readiness for 11th September[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Many thanks

My DRAFT response

[/FONT]I am not going to respond to your e-mail in detail as it seems you are determined to push this through even though only 30 people of 107 properties (probably c.200 people) have responded requiring permits and feel sure that the number of actual complaints about parking you have received, must be very small in comparison.

There were a couple of points though I do wish to mention Firstly in the correspondence between your former colleague and the Police Officer, a property and someone was identified. Can the Police not take any action if there is evidence of the person engaging in commercial activity from a residential property? (I believe the property is (another Housing Association) responsibility).

Secondly, in the same correspondence, there were photographs that were taken of alleged selling of vehicles. Most, if not all were taken in (neighbouring road) and not (this road). Maybe that is where the problem exists. As no new restrictions are going to happen there, I presume it will just continue.

In the end, nothing will change that cannot be rectified under the present arrangements. As far as I am aware nobody has not ever been able to park in the street when they have wanted to. All that will happen is that it will cause more inconvenience for the residents and their visitors. It will also mean more red tape for yourselves as people complain about the parking company who will adding to the their profits, with no 'rewards' for (Management company)

Regards

************
Can I ask does "non-exclusive use" mean that I am permitted to park in the road, but not in a specific space ?

Is there anything they can do to 'force' me to display a parking permit?

Thanks.

bazster

Non-exclusive would mean that you are entitled to use the car park, but so are other people. So obvious it wasn't even worth him mentioning it!

Engaging Park Direct UK is their attempt to force you to display a permit.

If I were you I'd follow up with a very strong letter stating that, since he clearly isn't interested in dialogue and is determined to foist this thoroughly disreputable company onto the residents, your final word on the subject is that you refuse to participate in the scheme, you refuse to display a permit, and any interference with your car or those belonging to your visitors (such as attaching a fake parking ticket) will be considered trespass to property. Point out that [Management Company] is vicariously liable for the actions of its agent therefore you will hold [Management Company] liable for any trespass, harassment or interference with your right to quiet enjoyment.


And having done that, get a template "appeal" to Park Direct UK, and a template PoPLA appeal, ready to go. When you and your visitors have cost them £27 at PoPLA a dozen times they'll give up ticketing you.

Umkomaas

Why not ask them to instruct the PPC to develop a 'white list' of car VRMs which have an entitlement to be there. That gets rid of the 'display permit' problem, especially where it slips from the dashboard or a resident forgets to display it.

Remember, they should be trying to make this as easy as possible for the residents to deal with - after all they represent you in this regard. It is not about them making the job easier for the PPC.

But of course Park Direct won't want this as it reduces their opportunity to cash in. Ask the MA to put this proposition to the PPC and if they turn it down, to give full reasons for doing so. That will flush out their real motives for a permit scheme.