Can someone explain how this is right?

Ames

Thanks. That's great in theory, but in practice the only money that can be used to pay extra costs is my share. There's only two beneficiaries, my sister and I. Her share of 45k is the house equity and so effectively has already been given, at the time of the house sale.

I think I need to make sure I see the solicitor who deals with contentious probate issues as soon as possible.

dancingfairy

Ames I don't think you need to attend court. Normally if it's just a normal court summons it is basically the council protecting themselves. They take it to the magistrates court (not county court) so no judgement will harm your credit rating and it's basically a rubber stamping issue. The court will only be interested in whether the council has billed the estate correctly and whether the estate is the liable party. They will then rubber stamp the order. When the council have the order they will then need to decide how to enforce it. They may be happy to accept a payment plan at this stage, they may go for an attachment of earnings or they may appoint bailiffs. I'm unsure a) how your council is likely to act and b) what they do in probate cases (as it's hard to chase an estate rather than an individual).
I suggest you speak to the council and explain the situation. You probably also want to send it in an email and follow it up with pen and paper. Explain that you believed that your sister was paying the council tax but have recently discovered that she hasn't. Explain that you are aware that it needs paying but you are not in a position to pay it right now. You should offer a payment plan if you are able to do so but if not then maybe you should explain that your only income right now is benefits and as soon as you receive the proceeds of the sale you will settle the bill.
Regards
df

dancingfairy

In terms of dividing up the house - if the house is worth 100k and the debts are 10k then you share the 90k equity between you. If the house is worth 100k but the debts are actually 20k then the equity is only 80k which is shared between you ie 40k each. The extent of the debts should be clarified before it is clear who is getting what, surely?
Although in your situation, it is clearly wrong and you have clearly been stung by your sister and father is it worth causing a fuss at this late stage or would it be better just to get the whole thing over and done with and walk away?
df

nom_de_plume

Ames, are you likely to remain on benefits for the long term? If so, then walking away from it is probably the best solution. Your inheritance will doubtless reduce your benefits so, in the long term, the only difference the size of the inheritance will make will be how long your benefits stay reduced. Is the stress worth it?

If you're likely to return to work soon that's a different ballgame. It's maybe a bit late now but I'd perhaps have looked at putting a charge on the property for your outstanding share with a proviso for interest to be added when it's finally paid. Maybe, if you do get legal advice, you may want to ask if this is still a possibility.

Ames

Thanks everyone.

dancingfairy wrote: »

Ames I don't think you need to attend court. Normally if it's just a normal court summons it is basically the council protecting themselves. They take it to the magistrates court (not county court) so no judgement will harm your credit rating and it's basically a rubber stamping issue. The court will only be interested in whether the council has billed the estate correctly and whether the estate is the liable party. They will then rubber stamp the order. When the council have the order they will then need to decide how to enforce it. They may be happy to accept a payment plan at this stage, they may go for an attachment of earnings or they may appoint bailiffs. I'm unsure a) how your council is likely to act and b) what they do in probate cases (as it's hard to chase an estate rather than an individual).
I suggest you speak to the council and explain the situation. You probably also want to send it in an email and follow it up with pen and paper. Explain that you believed that your sister was paying the council tax but have recently discovered that she hasn't. Explain that you are aware that it needs paying but you are not in a position to pay it right now. You should offer a payment plan if you are able to do so but if not then maybe you should explain that your only income right now is benefits and as soon as you receive the proceeds of the sale you will settle the bill.
Regards
df

The solicitor gave me the impression I'd have to attend? Which surprised me because from my DFW days I thought that when council tax goes to court it's with a long list of names and it's just as you said, a rubber stamping exercise and would be chaos if everyone turned up!

Like I said the solicitor's been in touch and explained that the house sale is going through and they'll be paid soon, and they said as long as they get written proof of that they'll 'vacate' the hearing, whatever that means.

dancingfairy wrote: »

In terms of dividing up the house - if the house is worth 100k and the debts are 10k then you share the 90k equity between you. If the house is worth 100k but the debts are actually 20k then the equity is only 80k which is shared between you ie 40k each. The extent of the debts should be clarified before it is clear who is getting what, surely?
Although in your situation, it is clearly wrong and you have clearly been stung by your sister and father is it worth causing a fuss at this late stage or would it be better just to get the whole thing over and done with and walk away?
df

The actual figures.

We've agreed a house sale price/value of 145k.
Dad and sister can get a mortgage for 100k.
That 100k has to pay debts and my share.
By my reckoning (I don't know the final amounts, ie the final utility bill after submitting readings, the mortgage redemption figure, or any added costs because of this legal action by the council, or what the final solicitor fees will be) debts are currently at around 53,500. So it's getting very close to the 100k not covering everything.

I don't know why the solicitor didn't get to grips with what the debts were before advising me I had to take the offer. I've been very naive, I know that.

I see what you're saying about making a fuss. I think I just want to see this other solicitor to get a few questions answered. I know that in reality nothing can really be done, but as I've nothing to lose by going for a free consultation it'll be worth it for peace of mind I think.

nom_de_plume wrote: »

Ames, are you likely to remain on benefits for the long term? If so, then walking away from it is probably the best solution. Your inheritance will doubtless reduce your benefits so, in the long term, the only difference the size of the inheritance will make will be how long your benefits stay reduced. Is the stress worth it?

If you're likely to return to work soon that's a different ballgame. It's maybe a bit late now but I'd perhaps have looked at putting a charge on the property for your outstanding share with a proviso for interest to be added when it's finally paid. Maybe, if you do get legal advice, you may want to ask if this is still a possibility.

I'm very likely to remain on benefits for the long term. My inheritance will stop all my benefits except DLA, although we're looking into getting permission for me to buy a property through shared ownership or the HOLD scheme.

If the DWP say no to the house, then you're right it's actually better for me the less the inheritance is, other than potential deprivation of capital issues.

If they say yes I can buy a house, then obviously the more inheritance I get the better.

tangojulie

I hope I've understood your situation and I'm sorry to hear about the problems you're having.

I do however think that you're confusing things by not separating out what people ought to get from what's available.

First you need to work out what people ought to get. Add up all the assets (house valued at 145k, car valued at say 2k, etc) and take off all the debts (say 55k but make sure this includes everything including for example the conveyancing fees and all the council tax, not just the unpaid amount). You will get a total of (on these figures) 147k less 55k ie 92k. Divide this by 2 and it gives you what you and your sister ought to get each. 46k on these figures.

Then have two columns, one for you and one for your sister. Start each one off with 'amount due 46k'.

Underneath that have however many rows you need saying 'already taken...' and the amount. This comes off the 46k in that person's column. So if your sister has taken a car that was then worth 2k, her amount due will come down to 44k.

You will also need row(s) for anything that either of you has personally paid that should have come out of the estate. The estate should repay you for that so that needs to be added on.

At the end of all this you will have a figure due to you and a figure due to your sister. Let's suppose just for now that the amount due to her comes to 40k.

Now that you know what's due, it's time to look at how that can be funded from what's available.

Your sister is actually getting a house worth 145k. 40k of that is due to her so she will have to find a way of paying the difference of 105k. If 100k is coming from the mortgage then she will have to find an additional 5k. If she can't do that then you have every right to ask for a charge on the house so that when it is eventually sold you get what you are owed. You are effectively making her a loan of 5k (on these figures) so you would be within your rights to ask for interest. I expect that could be compounded and added to the charge if your sister can't or won't make ongoing payments.

Alternatively, as executor you have every right to say what any house seller would say - 'you don't seem to be able to come up with enough money to cover the agreed sale price so I'm not going to sell to you'.

Hope that makes sense, good luck.

g6jns_2

Ames wrote: »

Thanks. That's great in theory, but in practice the only money that can be used to pay extra costs is my share. There's only two beneficiaries, my sister and I. Her share of 45k is the house equity and so effectively has already been given, at the time of the house sale.

I think I need to make sure I see the solicitor who deals with contentious probate issues as soon as possible.

Not true. If need be the other beneficiaries will have to borrow the money or sell the house in order to pay you your rightful share.

RAS

g6jns wrote: »

Not true. If need be the other beneficiaries will have to borrow the money or sell the house in order to pay you your rightful share.

That might seem logical to me and to you but be assured that the way Ames family see it, the additional costs increase by say £2K to cover debts, they will demand that Ames reduces the price of the house by £2K.

These people do not do nice, fair or logical.

Ames

Cheers RAS, that pretty much sums up my family!


Anyway, today I've had this reply from my solicitor.

I have today been contacted by sister in relation to the outstanding issue regarding the council tax sister has paid.

She has indicated that she did indeed receive a 25% discount in respect of council tax at the property from 1st July 2013 to April 2014. She did indicate that because she was claiming the discount at this property she was having to pay the full council tax on her property in Leeds. She has indicated that you discussed matters and agreed that this would offset any benefit she may gain. Well, if by discussed, they mean 'sister told me this was happening and that in fact I should be paying some of her council tax in Leeds and I ignored her'. Can we now proceed with the figures obtained? This is the first indication I've had of when sister stopped paying. I think that the difference between the discount on mum's house (total CT bill £1500 a year) and her bedsit (total CT bill of £800 a year) should be taken into account. I also think she should be providing proof of what she's paid, unless the solicitor already has proof from the council of what council tax payments were made. But...


As previously advised I am extremely concerned that this remaining point is escalating the costs involved in the matter. Actually, this is the first time she's raised these concerns, but anyway. The benefit to be gained in arguing this point is going to be outweighed by the additional costs to the estate it will bring. So there's no point me arguing anymore.


Perhaps you would be so kind as to contact me to confirm your position so that we can hopefully bring this matter to a conclusion.


Note there's no mention of the car value in this.




Is she allowed to pay some creditors before others or does it all have to be done at the same time? What I mean is can she pay the ones that aren't in dispute, and sort out the council tax situation and hold off on what's owed to dad, sister and me until after I've seen the contentious issues guy?

Also, what happens with paying the full council tax bill when it's for the year to next April, when the house no longer belons to the estate now? Does the court summons affect that? What I mean is, as it's gone to court does the estate have to pay the whole bill or only the bit for when it owned the house and was liable?

I think I'm going to advise her that I'm waiting for an appointment with the other guy, which will be as soon as I can get one, and will make a decision following that meeting. It's only a delay of a few days, and I can't see how that can increase the bills as she wont have to do any work during that time?

missprice

Ames wrote: »

Cheers RAS, that pretty much sums up my family!


Anyway, today I've had this reply from my solicitor.

I have today been contacted by sister in relation to the outstanding issue regarding the council tax sister has paid.

She has indicated that she did indeed receive a 25% discount in respect of council tax at the property from 1st July 2013 to April 2014. She did indicate that because she was claiming the discount at this property she was having to pay the full council tax on her property in Leeds. She has indicated that you discussed matters and agreed that this would offset any benefit she may gain. Well, if by discussed, they mean 'sister told me this was happening and that in fact I should be paying some of her council tax in Leeds and I ignored her'. Can we now proceed with the figures obtained? This is the first indication I've had of when sister stopped paying. I think that the difference between the discount on mum's house (total CT bill £1500 a year) and her bedsit (total CT bill of £800 a year) should be taken into account. I also think she should be providing proof of what she's paid, unless the solicitor already has proof from the council of what council tax payments were made. But...


As previously advised I am extremely concerned that this remaining point is escalating the costs involved in the matter. Actually, this is the first time she's raised these concerns, but anyway. The benefit to be gained in arguing this point is going to be outweighed by the additional costs to the estate it will bring. So there's no point me arguing anymore.


Perhaps you would be so kind as to contact me to confirm your position so that we can hopefully bring this matter to a conclusion.


Note there's no mention of the car value in this.




Is she allowed to pay some creditors before others or does it all have to be done at the same time? What I mean is can she pay the ones that aren't in dispute, and sort out the council tax situation and hold off on what's owed to dad, sister and me until after I've seen the contentious issues guy?

Also, what happens with paying the full council tax bill when it's for the year to next April, when the house no longer belons to the estate now? Does the court summons affect that? What I mean is, as it's gone to court does the estate have to pay the whole bill or only the bit for when it owned the house and was liable?

I think I'm going to advise her that I'm waiting for an appointment with the other guy, which will be as soon as I can get one, and will make a decision following that meeting. It's only a delay of a few days, and I can't see how that can increase the bills as she wont have to do any work during that time?

By she I think you mean solicitor? She will do what you tell her, I.e pay all the bills/some of the bills/none of the bills.

The estate is liable only for council tax to the date its sold. After that date its the new owners problem. Assuming that the estate is indeed liable?

From which website
Council tax when you move home
If you move home, you need to let the council know in advance, so that they can stop charging you council tax for your old address from the day you move out.

If you are staying within the borough, they will adjust your bill to a new rate.

If you are moving further afield, your new council should be notified, and will start charging you council tax based on your new property's rating from the day you move in.